Talk:Magic

Third Magic
I still don't get what the Third Magic does. The explanation is only confusing me more. ^^; --Koveras Alvane 18:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Just keep it at "Materialization of the soul". With just that, you can guess that raw souls can't normally interact with the outside world.
 * There's that other explanation about how a living creature needs a soul, a body and a brain to live ; the brain is what anchors the soul to the present world. You know how some characters can have some nifty regeneration skill that could revive them even if a vital part like the heart is destroyed (e.g. Ciel's original skill, before the Roa-paradox, worked just like that) ; well, destroying the brain would override that (thus if Arcueid had killed Elesia by destroying her brain the first time around instead of piercing her heart, she likely wouldn't be here in Tsukihime).
 * ... And so, materializing the soul would allow you to override that restriction, it would prevent the soul from slipping away back to the Akasha and be purged in the cycle of reincarnation.
 * Apparently that's a very tough thing to do. The line "Rather than the reproduction of a body from a soul of the past" is about how it's not a copy (you create someone else who happens to be just like the other guy in every aspect), but really the original soul that is materialized. Without it, a raw soul would just be recycled as it isn't anchored in the present world. It's not really creating a brain the soul could anchor to, it seems like it's making the soul so that it doesn't need to be anchored. A higher existence, on a higher plane, etc. A raw soul isn't a lifeform, but the third magic can make it easier to turn into something actually alive.
 * It's said that the Great Grail uses an incomplete piece of the Third Magic to bring the Servants here ; well, with Servants, you pull out a raw soul (which just so happens to be filled with a copy of the Heroic Spirit) then you need prana to help them remain in the present world. They're somehow brought back, but they aren't alive ; the full third magic would make them "alive" (then you'd just need to give them a physical body). ... The mud of the corrupted Grail gives them a physical body, but still without making them alive.
 * tl;dr a raw soul is just raw energy. If it's not anchored in the present world, it disappears and goes back through the cycle of reincarnation. The third magic turns them into something that is actually present, not just an interference, something that can interact with the present world. It's closer to being somethingh actually alive, hence a "higher existence". Just give it a body and it becomes a real person.
 * It somehow allows a true immortality, better than Zouken's, because the soul doesn't get damaged in the process, it remains as it was supposed to be.
 * ... I'll try and see if there isn't an article on the soul that could make all that understandable. --Byakko 19:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There ! Done. Hopefully I didn't mess it up, and hopefully it will help. --Byakko 23:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. ^^ I've tried to summarize what I understood in this article, so please check if there is any mistakes there. ^^;; --Koveras Alvane 12:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Just stick with the translation of the explanation that Ilya gave directly. They can't be stuck together like that.

hmmm...... No mention of the 6th magic from Melty Blood?


 * What? Explain! --Raijinili 14:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it certainly was mentioned but I haven't played in a while. I think it was something about Tatari Kaloo 18:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Odd thought. What if the Fifth Magic is a way to emulate the function of a Transcendental body. In effect, a way to channel the infinite prana of the planet without overloading a magic circuit. A safe way to overextend a person's magecraft. It might explain why Aoko has so much raw power, but with so few circuits. Most of her spells are really simple, but ridiculously strong... Does she even use Aria?--Twelveseal 07:59, December 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * You guys are misunderstanding something. First of all, there is no such a thing as a Sixth Magic. What we have in Melty Blood is the mention of a "Program Number 6", a natural law that Zepia/Walachia tried to break (and failed) that is said to bring the final doom of humanity.
 * Also, the exact details of Aoko's Magic is something that has never been stated anywhere (although a few dialogues of Actress Again have implied that it falls along the lines of time travel). Her ability of using great amounts of prana is a byproduct of her family's high-quality Magic Circuits. And yes, she does use Aria. Actually, she even have a skill called High-Speed Aria that allows her to spell her chants faster than normal. --Libra00 08:50, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * "What if the Fifth Magic is a way to emulate the function of a Transcendental body. In effect, a way to channel the infinite prana of the planet without overloading a magic circuit." Welcome to Bullshitland, where you pull up totally random conjectures from nowhere. Besides, it looks like you completely ignored the very definition of magic to begin with - something outside of the natural laws which can't be reproduced in any way by science. Just boosting a power output or extending something that exists (like the circuits) has nothing to do with that. --Byakko 10:24, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Stub ?
Is this still a stub ? It's pretty much everything that's known from all the novels. Any modification would be either a cosmetic change or adding info as other games come out. --Byakko 16:09, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Article was a stub long time ago but, as you say, is no longer. I see no reason not to removed the stub status. --Azaghal 05:01, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Unclear definitions
First order of business - Magic (general definition): (1) "[T]he ability to make possible something that is impossible to realize in the current era." (2)"If it is possible to realize "magic" regardless of time and fund, then the "result" isn't magic."

I don't get it. The "regardless of time and fund" part in (2) seems to contradict the "impossible to realize in the current era" in (1), which itself implicity means that a "True Magic" does something that, at the time of its creation, is impossible to do, but may be possible in the future, whether due to technological or financial requirements.

Second order of business - First Magic, territory: what is "Denial of nothingness" supposed to mean? Is Nasu-sensei trying to mess with our heads by giving ambiguously brief "explanations"? ^^;

MarqFJA 19:58, December 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * First : The "regardless of time and fund" part doesn't take into account the potential technological/magical development, only it's current state. For instance, getting a human to walk on the Moon would be considered a True Magic until 1960s when technical knowledge became sufficiently advanced to do it. No matter how much time or resources a medieval civilization might had, they just couldn't get a man to the moon. I think I read from somewhere else (can't remember where, or if it's properly sourced) that time travel has the highest chance to be the next in line for True Magic becoming "mundane" - it is something that can only be achieved by Magic atm, but technology might allow it soon.


 * Second : Yes, as far as I know. He does that a lot :P --Azaghal 23:08, December 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * First : Now that makes much more sense than simply "regardless of time and fund". ^^ That sentence should really be followed by clarification along the lines of "with current science/technology", in light of your explanation. ;P


 * Second : So, you don't have a clue too, huh? --;
 * MarqFJA 23:30, December 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * On "clarify that it's with current science/tech" : it's already said. "Impossible to realize in the current era". --Byakko 01:47, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * That clause alone would've been clear enough; it's the "regardless of time and fund" clause that follows it that muddled the intended meaning, and which needs SOME clarifying extension to clear the confusion. Read the whole sentence again, and then imagine a newbie trying to make sense of it. MarqFJA 02:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * "the ability to make possible something that is impossible to realize in the current era. If a person, or group thereof, is able to realize "magic" regardless of the time and fund put into it, then the "result" isn't magic." Better ? --Byakko 13:26, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Now that is practically impossible to misinterpret. MarqFJA 13:42, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

"Emiya Shirou tracing ability is said to be a deteriorated form of the first magic."
I don't remember this. Where was it stated?
 * It isn't. The misunderstanding comes from a certain scene in the Fate Route in which Rin mention that Shirou's tracing was "a deteriorated form of that one magic". It never made any direct mention to the First, so I don't know why people are so fixated on the idea. Also, nobody seems to be considering a possible translation mistake, as MM was not so keen in using different terms to majutsu (Magecraft) and mahou (Magic). For all we know, she could be talking about the Reality Marble Magecraft. --Libra00 16:46, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Seems more like it's a fragment of the Second Magic anyway, as he pulls stuff out of his own alternate reality...--Twelveseal 06:58, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * What ? His alternate reality and the second magic ? ... This has absolutely nothing to do with that. It's not an alternate reality in that sense of the term. --Byakko 18:01, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Basically Rin just says that what he does is similar to a True Magic. Doesn't specify which one. Basically it's not really a form of True Magic at all, it just functions like one of them...Gotta wonder why we don't just use the forums for recurring topics like this.Twelveseal 02:47, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Stanrobe Calhin
Hey, anybody know where the Stanrobe Calhin thing came from? I haven't seen that info anywhere, whether it makes sense or not...Twelveseal 05:59, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I undid the two edits that added unsourced info. You're right, those were probably random speculation --Azaghal 23:49, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

The five magics are only magics recognized by the Association.

http://hiki.cre.jp/typemoon/?TheMagic

Also, if magic means anything impossible to modern science, then Touko ("perfect" doll, which is the same as perfect clone) and Araya (awakening origin, and science doesn't even have the concept of origin) are both magicians by this bottom line definition.

This would make most thaumargy "True Magic", since many of them are impossible to aquire through modern technology (at its current state). I think real Magic is something that cant even be aquired in the farthest future, while Toukos Clone and Arayas Manipulation can be.
 * It's somewhat hinted that time travel is one of the five Magics and that it is the one technology is the closest to be able to recreate. That said, you can also see it that way : what's natural and what's not. Creating energy or things from nothing (what the First Magic seems to be) is not natural, generating a flame is a natural occurence. A human body is a natural occurence (by the way, clones exist with modern technology), traveling through parallel dimensions/universes isn't. --Byakko 09:14, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

So the definition of Magic really comes down to "A technique* that goes against natural laws" (which is necessarily impossible to science).


 * I think "technique" would be a better word than "something", otherwise special abilities (e.g. MEoDP) that don't involve any methodology would be counted as Magic too. A living being perceiving everything's death ain't natural...

FYI, cloning in science means cloning the genes only (meaning a clone must go through the biological growth process). Recreating the exact growth is impossible, because any varibles in one's growth can turn one into a different person. When I said "perfect clone" I meant achieving that impossibility, which Touko achieved.