Talk:Skill

General

 * Since Jonnobi went down, I lost one of my most valuable sources for this type of data. As such you guys can see that the description of some Skills were left in blank as I was unable to find reliable transcriptions of their details in time. Still, I put said skills here anyway as placeholders and I promise to complete them as soon as I refresh my sources. Libra00 10:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, that should be it then. By the way, if anyone finds out that Jonnobi is back online, or if anyone knows a source as good as it, please let me know. -Libra00 05:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Host switch, AFAIK. -CanonRap

What?
戦術、学術、隠密術、暗殺術、詐術、話術、その他総数32種類に及ぶ専業スキルについてBクラス以上の習熟度を発揮できる.

Libra: Yes it is. Is a matter of context really. Check http://en.bab.la/dictionary/english-japanese/%E4%BB%A5%E4%B8%8A.html for an idea)

What? How is this a matter of context? If it was 以下 it would make sense but saying "up to Rank B" implies that Rank B is the max and skill proficiency won't be any higher.

If you mean the other examples of 以上 in the dictionary entry, they simply aren't used that way.

Heart of Harmony
I checked again the proper translation for this skill of Sasaki Koujirou. The kanji is "宗和の心得". I can say with confidence that the second word stands for "knowledge/information", but there is no clear translation for the first one. The best I could come up with was the name of the Souwa-style of japanese tea ceremony, but I don't think it relates to this case. Therefore, I simply put the individual meaning of the two kanji that compose it. Libra00 16:38, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well the official translation (aka mirror moon's) is 'Knowledge of Foremost Harmony'. Not sure how much you guys trust mirrormoon's translation though. 205.206.18.25 05:34, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

What does transfiguration mean and how does that even fit in with what 変化 is?
See title.


 * Let me put this way, 変化 ("henka") can roughly mean change, transformation and many other synonyms. In this case it is being used to refer a capacity to transform one's body, so maybe calling it "metamorphosis" would have been more accurate. Still, I went with transfiguration because of its supernatural connotations. Libra00 10:11, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's "henge" not henka and it's normally translated as shapeshift. Transfiguration has too powerful a meaning (the transfiguration of Christ). I don't think any sort of literature ever describes Tamamo no Mae as being a master of "transfiguration".
 * Henka or henge, it can be read both ways. Whatever transfiguration is too powerful or not is up anyone's views, but it still fitting to this case. Also Tamamo-no-Mae is in essence a japanese fox-spirit, which are very well known for taking several appearances. Libra00 18:11, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jesus christ, you're full of face palm. Henka can be read both ways but in fantasy context and as an ability, it's read as Henge. Also, what is wrong with the word Shapeshift for crying out loud which is what the word is normally translated as?


 * Please remember to sign your posts using four tildes ~'s or by using the signature button. Also if you do decide to use shape shift or some other thing, change each instance in the description and for both playable Caster's and the other Fate/EXTRA Caster's list of skills. Only used transfigure for consistency, seems to work fine with synonyms for transfigure. Transform is another usable alternative. Also not everyone's had loads of translating experience so try to be understanding. 205.206.18.25 05:45, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Also not everyone's had loads of translating experience" and since when that's a good excuse to ignore the comments by those who do ? Demonic foxes shapeshift, that's a very typical and standard translation. --Byakko 07:31, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Err I didn't mean to say that about the translation part, only about 'for crying out loud' and 'jesus christ' parts. And when I said I only used transfigure for consistency it was because I saw that's what it was listed as in Caster's skill205.206.18.25 19:47, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

Self Modification
Uhh the description for A rank Self mod was a direct translation, even so I can't see how that really qualifies as a poem... 205.206.18.25 17:24, August 6, 2010 (UTC) s, and doesn't really have to contain a poem. --Azaghal 23:33, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I doesn't seem so, but all of the other Nursery Rhyme descriptions are, so imho it can stay that way for consistency. Plus, ... is only a convenient way to preserve newlines and indentation without the use of tons of

EGGS
Uh, EGGS, why are you changing the actual text to something saying something completely different?
 * He doesn't like the official texts, he rather make up his own description and completely change things. He's been doing that for a while in every pages he gets his hands on. --Byakko 15:05, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The point of a wiki is to allow for both hardcore fans and those not familiar with the material to understand everything clearly. Incomplete sentences, hard to understand phrases, and the like are not really suitable for one. Original text can be placed on the talk pages for reference, but it should generally be changed to allow for easier reading. And as I have said, if there is something wrong with my own understanding of the material, please feel free to correct it, point it out, or do whatever needs to be done to fix it. It is certainly not my intention to make up anything. EGGS 17:15, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. YOU put YOUR rewriting in a SEPARATE SECTION. You leave the original text unchanged. The original text has priority, NOT your rewrites or even your explanations. --Byakko 18:33, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * As long as the meaning is the same, what's the difference? This isn't some holy text that I'm twisting to my own whim to suit my needs or something. I'm simply doing my best to make it more user friendly, and I don't believe I've screwed up badly at all yet bar a sentence here and there. If you're looking for some sort of immortalized, uneditable, and "pure" TYPE-MOON sanctuary, you should probably salvage the information from Fuyuki and start your own or something. Actually though, backing up that information in full on this site wouldn't be a bad idea seeing as the mirrors go down all the time. Either way, would it kill you to try to be slightly more cordial? Swearing, caps, and a generally bad attitude seem really unnecessary on a site meant to be edited as nothing more than a hobby. EGGS 21:13, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The meaning isn't the same, that's the difference.
 * The Type-Moon fandom has always required very exact quotes from the source work. As soon as you writes something that is not a direct quote, this is already a bad thing for the community. It doesn't matter if you think it's better written, the point is accuracy and exact faithfulness. The original text still has priority over anything you will write that differes even by one word, no matter what you think. Seriously, it's like you have no idea what the TM fandom is like, you've never been to any forum and have never participated in any discussion. --Byakko 21:25, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've read plenty of discussions where people argue for pages upon pages over the syntax of a single quote. It's certainly not something unique to the TM crowd, though Nasu's writing does make it slightly more apparent. Even with direct quotes, not much can really be done to ever change that. But again, that isn't really the exact problem a wiki needs to deal with, and if it's accuracy you're worried about, that is one of the reasons for the references/citation system. I'd probably need to grab a proper template from wikipedia, but all you would have to do is slap something like "citation needed" on anything you feel requires some kind of more focused reference. That allows for everything to remain accurate while also allowing for more proper information management. Hopefully, I've managed to keep whatever I've worked on from requiring anything like that, but as always, feel free to point out anything I've screwed up. EGGS 21:43, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * From the beginning, you've always started on the basis that "your rewrites are needed to someone". They're not. Nobody complains about how badly written and how confusing they are, you're the only one who comes here and say "this needs to be rewritten" without giving any reason. If something is ambiguous, it's probably the desired effect of the material to begin with, and things are discussed, always - in that order, you don't put the discussion first and the quote from original text after. Everytime you put your rewrites and remove the original text, saying "you can add the original text afterward", you're acting like your rewrite is more important than the original text. You keep saying "I haven't changed anything, and if I have, feel free to point it out" but that's completely meaningless. The simple fact that it's not the original text already makes it a mistake. Your rewrites come only after that, not before. Stop saying we can add quotes afterward, that's not how it works, this is not Wikipedia. The way you "focus" things just removes everything of the original text.
 * As soon as it's your own text, this will always be considered an interpretation. I don't care if you think it's the same, I don't care if you say "well just point out the mistakes I made", it's already an interpretation. In the end, this whole site is nothing more a compilation of random comments by fans, and that's completely meaningless and as useless as sites like Beast's Lair. Thanks for ruining it and all the work people put in it before you. --Byakko 23:31, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I really doubt that you could find a single wiki on Wikia that uses fragmented and often overly ambiguous wording directly translated from the source material without any reformatting. The only ones that take information directly from the sources without modification would be ones like video game based wikis that list fighting game moves or enemy statistics in an RPG. What I'm doing is simply what is done on every other slightly productive wiki on this site. They don't simply just plop down the source material, but rather make proper use of the references system and do exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. Again, you're treating this like some exclusive collection of translations like Fuyuki, but do try to remember that this has a different purpose. The main text is to get the point across to anyone that visits, no matter if they're fans or completely alien to the material, and then the sources back up that text to make sure it is accurate. There can be slight twists, such as writing everything from an in-universe perspective, but that's the general idea. And again, if you want something in a "perfect state" that cannot be edited, go make your own. EGGS 23:58, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's only your own opinion and it completely ignores the fandom as a whole (nevermind that it's stupid to say "the rest of Wikia doesn't do like that", this is not a valid reason for anything). You're still the only one who talks about requiring to make it clearer than that ; all it needs is nothing more than organization. Without changing the quoted text. Again, this is not Wikipedia, so no, the text doesn't need to be entirely made only for those who know nothing about the series. For that, only a few line at the beginning to get the setting right would be just fine. All you've done in all these articles are meaningless rewrites, reorganizing and rewriting sentences for the sole sake of rewriting the articles. It's not always wrong, but it's very often completely uncalled for, it's like you're modifying everything just for the sake of rewriting everything you can, without caring for the actual content - even if you say you do. Again, you need nothing more than just a bit of organization between the quotes, but certainly not compulsive rewrites. Also stop acting like your rewrites are easier to read as if they were more proper English, because that's bullshit, you're only making yourself self-important. If you want to make a Wikipedia equivalent that's specifically made for people who have no idea what they're looking at, you go make your own. Making it in-universe is the general rule, not the exception.
 * I don't mind comprehensive articles for major characters like the Ryougi Shiki one for example, where all the sources are just jumbled up and the article only needs a summary of their role and personnality, but every single Noble Phantasm or Fate/Extra characters that all already had their own very precise and detailed articles ? Seriously ?? Why in the nine hells did you ABSOLUTELY NEED to rewrite the Nine Lives article to say virtually the exact same thing ? Those edits you made like that one are completely worthless and are just made for the sake of changing what's already there. There's no way in hell you're going to convince me that your rewrite of that Nine Lives article (still an example) was oh so important. --Byakko 00:42, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * How exactly does making things clearer ignore the TM community? I really doubt that everyone feels the need for direct, unedited quotes. Either way, it really is impossible to generalize anything with less than ten active editors. Personally, I do feel that they easier to read in that they're more comprehensively organized, though I don't personally feel that my syntax or grammar are all that great. I'm sure someone with a focus in that area could rewrite them fairly easily. Either way, the fact that it is what's done on nearly every active wiki is something to consider. I can't really find any cases where a wiki could potentially have a similar set up as what you desire for this one, but that is the general standard of pretty much any fiction related one. They do their best to organize the text and supply sources to back it up. In any case, to continue this discussion is worthless. We both have are own ideas on proper information management, and without sizable community to decide on anything, all we can do is keep editing as we see fit. EGGS 01:30, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * And the small articles like Nine Lives and Argon Coin are bad examples in the first place. They already have everything available, so of course not much besides a few minor details will be changed. It still doesn't change the fact that they were somewhat jumbled and still required more than simple reorganization. What about Knight of Honor or Bellerophon, which actually had content added to them? Are edits such as those worthless? EGGS 01:49, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at the Knight of Honor article, and yes, it's definitely garbage. When the hell was there any mention of the weapons turning into "demonic" spears, instead of just making a comparison at most ? Do you have any idea what that means in Nasuverse ? Does "an ability able to counter Knight of Honor" sound right to you ? How was that bit on Gae Dearg even necessary considering this is the same for anything Gae Dearg touches, like Saber's armor ? Why do you HAVE to take so many sentences to say exactly the same thing as what was said so simply in the original text ? Why the hell could that bit about how it did against Gate of Babylon not have been put in a separate section from the translated material, without touching it ? Why do you need so much text to describe a couple of scenes, instead of just a quick list of examples of what KoH was used for ? It's like you wrote this only for the sake of using big words. --Byakko 07:31, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * That was a description used sometime around the point of the jet being transformed. So now giving examples to provide context is a bad thing? There's also the fact that it was expressed a few times that Gae Dearg is something dangerous to the ability, so the mention is certainly as warranted as the GoB. You're currently just nitpicking for absolutely no reason. I'm sure a few things could be reorganized to lighten it up a bit here and there, but the content itself is perfectly fine. EGGS 08:42, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nitpicking for no reason ? Don't get things mixed up, it's not you who built the site from nothing and me trying to erase it, you're the one who's trying to rewrite and change things for no reason. The content was already fine, if you tell me that there's no reason to change it, there already was no reason to change it before. Like I said, all you're trying to do is change things only for the sake of changing things and have your text up instead of the original. There is no need to rewrite a concise article into entire paragraphs that do nothing but paraphrase. You can ADD a few lines to what existed before, to give a few words on what it's used for, if you want, but not change things just for the sake of having something else that isn't the original text. --Byakko 09:10, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Your only true complaint was that there is too much text. If it were truly superfluous, that would be one thing, but the entirety of the complaint just goes back to your original argument of wanting everything to match the original text. I'm not really seeing anything in that article that could be considered unnecessary. The first describes the basics, the second describes how it works, and the other two go over specifics on how it's used. It could stand an overall rewrite, but it should be pretty decent otherwise. I get the idea of wanting the content to match the source material as much as possible, but I am really having a hard time understanding why everything needs to read like it was freshly translated. The entire point of the references system is so that information can be managed and rearranged while allowing for accuracy. That way, information from the VNs, novels, and reference books can actually be blended together correctly into something cohesive. If I were to even attempt to do that without rearranging or modifying the text, it would just look like a complete mess. And really, how can you actually call random paragraphs without structure, sentences here and there, and just general messiness "concise" in the first place? The majority of them look horrible, read horribly, and lack a good deal of information. If all it took was some simple rearranging while adding a few sentences afterward, we wouldn't even need to discuss this in the first place. EGGS 16:52, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, you're starting from the base idea that your own text is the default. It's not. The default is the original text. Your rewrites are completely unneeded and uncalled for. And it just goes very bad when you make a mistake with the actual content.
 * Stop asking why I want to change your text, I don't care about what you think of that, and I don't care if you can't see why we need too match the original text. The question is, why would you even want to change the original text. The intruder here is you, not the original text. You still haven't given any valid reason to rewrite every single page on the Wikia, other than you just like it better. The priority still goes to the original text. And stop saying you're only rearranging stuff for comprehension and accuracy, because that's not what you're doing. Those information can be arranged and organized, but NOT the way you're doing it, you're doing nothing but changing every single sentence you find. Just because you're too dense to understand the original text doesn't mean you need to change it ; just as much as you keep claiming your rewrites are easier to understand, I make a point that the original text, even though you say it has no structure and such, is still much better. To me, your rewrites are just plain horrible to read, and are just very badly organized, especially when you screw up with your own understanding - I'll just take the example of what's pointed out right now in the Talk page of the Verg Avesta article, about two sentences you put together and that should not be put together. And the only reason we're discussing this in the first place is you - you're still the only one to do anything like that. It's not like I'm the only one who has ever done anything on this Wikia, and out of those who have made sizeable contributions, nobody except you has been doing anything like that. Stop saying it's easier to understand, because you're the only one who thinks so, especially considering you're actually mixing up stuff. --Byakko 18:41, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course I'm going to consider my edits to be the default position. That's the normal editing process. The whole point of the a wiki is to cover the material, not duplicate the referenced works in their entirety. The only other places where you would find exact text being the majority of the articles would be trading cards based ones and very specific video game based ones. Look in the anime wikis section. Pretty much every one of those has various guidebooks similar to those released by TM, but you're not going to find anyone there arguing that they need to base everything in the articles only on the text within those. They pretty much all use the same exact process as I'm attempting to apply here, and they use those guidebooks as general references. You're acting as if this wiki is equal to the one of the colossal 80,000 article ones with an established base of users. This one is two steps away from being dead as soon as someone gets bored, and it is not suddenly perfect just because ten or so active editors feel content with the articles. As for the quality of my writing, I just said that it isn't exactly the model of perfection, but again, part of the whole wiki process is refining the information over time. Either way, it's still better than content that was copied and pasted from Fuyuki or Wikipedia left unchanged for years on end. EGGS 19:31, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Except, again, the Nasuverse and its fandom have so many problems there it is actually needed to be absolutely sure you have things right. With your rewrites, we're automatically straying from facts, and none of this sticks well enough to the official info. This "refining" you talk about is filled with incorrect reinterpretations. In short, this is not a good place to get canonical info, period. Dead wiki ? If there's no new info, then there is zero reason to add anything. If the series is dead, it's not abnormal the Wiki dies too. Fortunatelly this is not the case, but you still find the time to mess up articles that were already fine. By the way, I also disagree with copy-pasting the Fuyuki Wiki, some people tried that early on but that only did bad things. But it doesn't change the fact that you're not doing things properly, you're still rewording every single sentence you find for no reason at all. --Byakko 19:53, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a problem inherent only to TM properties, and it is found in all types of fiction. You can apply the same kind of logic even to the act of translating it in the first place. I'm sure there are more than a few discrepancies between some of the translated and untranslated text. That doesn't mean that everything has to be kept 100% unedited. All that it requires is prudence in making sure that all facts match up. If something doesn't exactly fit, it can be backed with a proper reference. Just because it would be fine to leave it unedited does not mean that it would be bad to attempt to improve it. I get where you're coming from, but the fact is that this is not supposed to be a place where people come only to obtain pure facts. It's a community to develop and structure proper articles that can be followed by anyone. The dead wiki comment was referring to the fact that you make it sound like I have invaded a large wiki with the intent of disrupting things. This one doesn't really have that much of an active community like others, so its silly to say that "everything was fine before, so all you're doing is ruining it." It has barely had any real development beyond the basic building of articles, so this should be considered an attempt at improvement even if you don't exactly agree with it. EGGS 18:14, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

But it doesn't make your edits any better. I'm not saying the articles should never be edited beyond the original text, I'm saying that your edits, specifically, are bad. I even mentionned several times that it's just fine to add more explication sections, but separated from the original text, or even just adding things in the middle of it, as long as the text of the original material is still there. I'll give the example of what I did for Robin Hood, I put my translation of his original description, and in addition, my own comments outside of the official material, such as a quick summary of the events that show his personnality, his skills, and even his strategy. But the text that is given in-game is always left as it is. Comparatively, in your edits of that article, you mixed up and misunderstood various points, removed info that the material insisted on, related things that shouldn't be linked together... The original text should be left as it is precisely to avoid the kind of things you did - basically completely misunderstanding various points. --Byakko 19:21, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Fate/Extra
I found |this page that has the transcripts of the Servant profiles found in Fate/Extra game and translated the relevant sections to this article. Now, there is one skill that I didn't dare to work on: Archer (EMIYA)'s Eye of the Mind. The reason is, the name denotes that it is the (Fake) version, but the description all but matches exactly the (True) version. --Libra00 16:19, October 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * "There is also an effect called "purge defense", which reduces special defensive values in proportion to the Skill's Rank. It can break down Skills such as Protection of the Faith."
 * That's not what the Japanese says...........


 * "【神性[B]】神霊適性を持つかどうか. 高いほどより物質的な神霊との混血とされる. 粛清防御と呼ばれる特殊な防御値をランク分だけ削減する効果もある. 菩提樹の悟り、信仰の加護、といったスキルを打ち破る". Is what he's refering to. From Fate/Extra. I'm pretty sure what the Japanese says and how he translated it is correct. 205.206.18.179 03:29, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course that isn't correct. Purge defense is something separate and not inherent to divinity. Divinity cancels out the purge defense. Try reading the grammatical structure of the sentence not the words. You parse it like this:
 * 粛清防御と呼ばれる特殊な防御値
 * を
 * ランク分だけ削減する
 * 効果もある.
 * The first three lines combined modifying the 効果

The thing is, it can also go like this:
 * 粛清防御と呼ばれる
 * 特殊な防御値をランク分だけ削減する
 * 効果もある.

In this case, the first and third parts make the main sentence while the second serves as an extra descriptive phrase. I'll admit that this particular one was kind of a pain to translate due the complicated ways of Japanese grammar, but I am still quite confident that the translation I posted is correct. --Libra00 01:01, October 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually I see what he means now. The thing is it CAN go both ways but I think what he says is right. 粛清防御 is what made me decide in the end. If what you guys would translate it to is "purge defense" it doesn't mean that it purges defense, it means it defends purging, even though I would connect 粛清 more with killing or eliminating... So it would make more sense if "Purge defense" itself IS the special defense value. 205.206.18.179 17:44, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * If we go by what you're saying, then that line would translate as:
 * There is also an effect of reducing the special defensive value called "purge defense" in proportion to the Skill's Rank.
 * If you ask me, that sounds strange if we take the context into consideration.
 * Also, please don't forget to sign at the end of your posts. It makes clearer who is talking what and, as consequence, the dialogue becomes easier to follow. --Libra00 12:59, October 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe that's cause you don't understand what it's really saying. Suppose someone has a Purge defense with a rank of 4 and you have a divinity rank of 3. Your divinity drops the other guy's value down by 3 ranks. It makes perfect sense to me. "Purge defense" also appears in Ea's in-game description too.


 * No, I am pretty sure that purge defense is an effect that opposes special defenses. So much that the following sentence describes how it can overpower Skills such as Protection of the Faith, which is in itself a special form of protection. Also, what appears in Ea's description is "対粛清ＡＣ" not "粛清防御". Granted, AC is an old RPG abbreviation that means Armor Category, but it still a different term altogether. Incidentally, "対粛清ＡＣ" translates as "anti-purge AC(armor category)" --Libra00 07:27, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Has anyone ever told you your reading comprehension and Japanese sucks? The last word in a compound is the base of the word. 粛清 is the adjective modifying 防御. It is not something that purges defense. It is something that protects against 粛清.So what, you think "defense" cancels out other people's defenses? That's ridiculous.
 * @Libra
 * @Libra

Little heads up about the Nasuverse: many things are canon despite sounding ridiculous and senseless. True, the abilities of the purge defense effect don't quite match its name. But that is how the guys in charge of Fate/Extra decided to make it, so we have to accept it even if we don't like it. --Libra00 11:48, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * They didn't decide to make it that! You just keep thinking it's saying that, but it's not! Talk to anyone that knows Japanese and they'll say the same damn thing, it's not the "粛清防御", it's negating it!
 * Libra, as sad as this may sound, this is why I asked my mom what 粛清防御 would mean which I why I said earlier that "If what you guys would translate it to is "purge defense" it doesn't mean that it purges defense, it means it defends purging". If it really did mean it purges defense it would be 防御粛清, not 粛清防御. 205.206.18.179 17:44, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Libra, as sad as this may sound, this is why I asked my mom what 粛清防御 would mean which I why I said earlier that "If what you guys would translate it to is "purge defense" it doesn't mean that it purges defense, it means it defends purging". If it really did mean it purges defense it would be 防御粛清, not 粛清防御. 205.206.18.179 17:44, October 23, 2010 (UTC)