User talk:Zodiac21

Welcome
Hi, welcome to ! Thanks for your edit to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! EGGS (talk) 10:32, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Nrvnqsr
Nero's Reality Marble is definitely something he did on his own. He's older than Roa by hundreds of years. There's a later flashback scene where Roa talks about having something to teach him, which is referencing the Soil of Genesis. The only thing I'm not sure of is classifying SoG as a RM, but he talks about it in response to her inquiry about "what's this RM?" It might be clearer in Japanese. EGGS (talk) 18:30, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * The Soil of Genesis was developed jointly by Roa and Nrvnqsr (Melty Blood, Roa's victory speech).  Nero's older than Roa but he was already a Dead Apostle by the time he met Roa, and he learned the Lair from him afterwards...is what I would think. I don't think the Soil of Genesis is a separate RM because the Lair of the Beast King already is Nero's RM and it won't make much sense to make another RM out of a RM. Like you said, it's a response to "What's this RM?" right after the talk about the Soil of Genesis so it's kind of ambiguous. Blegh. Zodiac21 (talk) 19:35, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * The core of Nero's existence is LotBK, as in he cannot be Nero without it. It's what makes him a DA and caused him to cease being the singular being named Fabro. From then on, he's looked for means of controlling the RM, which Roa helped him with over time. I can't see any mention of it being a RM anywhere else, so it's probably a weird translation or just an unrelated tangent. I'll probably get rid of that line then. EGGS (talk) 20:34, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Third Shiki
Having read and reread the cited answers over and over...I still stand behind the fact that Nasu never refers to Shiki's third personality with a single way of phrasing consistently. Both "Shiki Ryougi" and 「Shiki Ryougi」 are both used once (and both use the spelling of the female personality, in case you are curious). The novels don't do anything to distinguish the name, from what I can tell (and if so, whoever transcribed it for the cite on the page did so incorrectly). What I am getting from this is that the the third Shiki Ryougi doesn't have an official name (though, as an embodiment of the Swirl of the Root, I argue that 「 」 still technically counts) and Nasu basically "boxes" the female Shiki's name to distinguish that its the third one he's talking about. I still don't know why you didn't take just referring to her as "the third personality" as a compromise, but if we do use one of the "boxed Shiki" names to refer to her, I'd go for "Shiki Ryougi" if only because it doesn't require users to copy/paste every time they need to refer to her by name.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:46, May 10, 2016 (UTC)


 * It's a fairly important plot point that  「Ryougi Shiki」 is referred to as such; she calls herself that to distinguish herself from the other Shikis because she isn't the same person as the other two -- Shiki and SHIKI were made by 「両儀式」, and she introduces herself by that name.
 * As for KnK having it written as  「両儀式」....well, you'll just have to take my word for it.


 * Here's the Japanese wiki for reference (not that there are any.
 * Well, unless you just want to make sure it's 『両儀式』):  http://typemoon.wiki.cre.jp/wiki/%E4%B8%A1%E5%84%80%E5%BC%8F


 * Melty Blood:  「 私 」
 * Quote from final round, blah blah, first time  「I'm 」 the one begging me to do something


 * F/GO: 両儀式が「式」という名の少女なら、この人物は「両儀式」という名の女性.
 * Blah, blah, Shiki is named  「 Shiki 」  and 「Ryougi Shiki」 is a woman with the name 「Ryougi Shiki」


 * In case you were wondering, from F/GO onwards, it's all completely written as  「両儀式」, other than the name under the card.


 * Most people will refer to her as Void Shiki anyway. The official name should be left as  「Ryougi Shiki」 for information; whether "Ryougi Shiki" is used instead in other articles for ease of typing or in the rest of the article has nothing to do with me.  Zodiac21 (talk) 05:59, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * I see your point on the name being 「両儀式」 consistently, thank you. Leaving it 「Shiki Ryougi」 is fine.
 * Though, as an aside, I do have to question it being written that way being a plot point, since it seems to be totally for the reader's convenience (as I am not sure that 「両儀式」 would be pronounced any differently from 両儀式). If I recall the epilogue, Third!Shiki refers to herself as Ryougi Shiki (specifically 「両儀式」 presumably), then Mikiya asks for elaboration (specifically, he says "...Shiki?"; because it's the same name as the Shiki he knows) and she goes on to talk about on her nature and the origins of the other two. Seeing as she is the embodiment of the Origin of 「 」, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't originally have a name, but took the female Shiki's name for convenience (the F/GO profile seems to confirm this, as it says she is "a woman with the name Shiki Ryougi" and not "she is Shiki Ryougi".) But I am just rambling now, sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 13:54, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Beast
The following are legitimate terminology used in the Japanese, which you removed the template for. They exist in the article for purposes of reference.


 * the Beasts of Calamity (災害の獣) - This is important because Fou is referred to as belonging to the the Breed of Calamity (災害の種)
 * fail-safe (安全装置)
 * the World of the Primates (霊長の世) -- The original text repeatedly refers to this. This particular usage links to the Reverse Side of the World because that's the only article in this Wikia that somewhat properly explains the distinction between the World of Man and the Interior of the World.
 * "the Combat Ritual For the Salvation of the World" (世界を救うための決戦術式)

The comparison between Independent Manifestation and the 3rd Magic was in the final Demon Pillar at the Temple of Time; Chloe von Einzbern compares the Independent Manifestation of the Demon Pillars with the 3rd Magic, and says the Demon Pillars are looking down on it.

-- Fallacies (talk) 16:20, January 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for the detailed reply. I reread the part with Chloe and it seems like you're right. It's odd because Goetia doesn't have IM though.


 * Can I know why you think the Grands have IM though? Gil says that IM is a characteristic specific to Beasts and Merlin's description says that he acquired it using his own means, which means that he shouldn't originally have it. He's also there as a Caster and not a Grand Caster.


 * I don't have a problem with the reason for your usage of the nihongo template but I feel like some of these words aren't "keywords" that necessarily have to be in the template. Frankly, having too many of these makes it extremely difficult to read the text in the wiki. Maybe replacing some of these templates with quotation marks or something else would be better for emphasis.


 * Zodiac21 (talk) 04:24, January 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * Goetia posing as Grand Caster Solomon suggests it during the protagonist's encounter with him in London. Even if he was lying or misrepresenting the truth (for example, concealing the fact that his IM in fact comes from his being an Evil of Man), note that IM appears in none of Servant profiles associated with either Goetia or Solomon in-game. Furthermore, the Grand Order Materials thus far released have a pattern of listing different Personal Skills than that given within the game itself -- for example, assigning Ryougi (Saber) IM despite not listing it within her in-game profile. Thus, it's a fact that the in-game Servant profiles for FGO are not necessarily complete.


 * Consider also the following:


 * Merlin exhibits a version of IM, having developed it himself; he projects himself into the World of Man from his dreams, exploiting his nature as an Incubus (an entity with powers associated with dreams). Caster Gilgamesh is able to resurrect himself (by reentering / reinhabiting his corpse) after Ereshkigal draws his soul into the Underworld; and is able to persist after the physical death of his body, manifesting as a spirit with the capacity to utilize Enuma Elish, and taking part in the final confrontation against Tiamat. Thus, at least two of the three Heroic Spirits known to qualify as Grand Casters are able to utilize something resembling Independent Manifestation.


 * Furthermore, King Hassan somehow manifests in Babylon "to repay the favor that the protagonist gave to his disciple" in Camelot. Even if he says that he's abandoned the seat of Grand Assassin to strike at Tiamat, everything he says makes it sound as if he's in Babylon of his own free will and choice -- even though manifestation by choice should be impossible without IM.


 * Given the above, it's entirely possible that Goetia's claim about Grand Servants possessing IM isn't a lie.


 * -- Fallacies (talk) 16:40, January 13, 2017 (UTC)

Beast II
Mewarmo's translation states:


 * A “Mother Ocean” that was once used as a breeding ground to produce life, but once the Earth’s environment stabilized and the ecosystem was established, she was exiled to the imaginary world (the reverse side of the world; an imaginary space that isn’t even a parallel world, without any life) as something unnecessary.

This is the translation quoted in the Tiamat profile on this website, specifically used in the references of this article as the citation of the passage of dispute. I went and got the second opinions of Arai/Deadfish of Fuyuki, CanonRap of Chaldeum, and Reiu, one of the translators of the FGO Scripts for Chaldeum, who all essentially confirmed Mewarmo's translation.

If you really need to go there, "~(で)すら" in practical usage looks like this:


 * こんな問題、子供ですら解ける. Even a child could solve the problem.
 * 宿題すらなければよかった. I wish if there weren't even homework.
 * 人ではなく、獣ですらない. Not a human; not even a beast.
 * 想像すらできない. I can't even imagine.
 * 最も強大な帝国ですら崩壊する. Even the mightiest of empires comes to ruin.

The point is, the construction used here is:


 * "Phrase 1". "Phrase 2" ですらない. -> "Phase 1." Not even a "Phrase 2."

More specifically, the grammatical construction of suggests that "Phrase 2" is an object that directly uses "Phrase 1" as its subject. Ergo, in paraphrase, the semantic meaning becomes "This is a Phrase 1, which is not even a Phrase 2." The sentence in question would be rendered, in its original construction, as: "The Interior of the World. Not even a parallel world." I don't see how this would parse as "Does not even have a parallel world," unless you're saying that in the examples above, the second part of "人ではなく、獣ですらない. " would parse as "doesn't even have an animal."

As a second point, which I'm not going to press on, "the Interior" in Nasu parlance generally always means the same exact thing, which is the layer beneath the World of Man controlled by Gaia's laws. Per the above usage, "the World of the Interior" would really just mean "the World" of "the Interior of the World." Furthermore, "the World of the Interior" isn't used except in the Tiamat profile, and there therefore isn't any evidence that the term means something different from "the Interior of the World."

I don't intend to argue over "Interior" vs. "Reverse," because it just means something on the opposing side. It becomes "Interior" only in consideration that the World of Man is the "Exterior" of the World.

-- Fallacies (talk) 00:23, January 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * ない can have two meanings: "to not be" and "to not have/doesn't exist" (roughly. I hate translating Japanese verbs to English because I learned Japanese separately from English and never "converted" between the two to learn). Fortunately, after I wrote this whole thing, I found a dictionary website: http://jisho.org/search/%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84


 * 人ではなく、獣ですらない uses "to not be", as inferred by its previous phrase.


 * In the case of parallel worlds, it means "to not have". As in, 考える必要もない. "There's no (as in doesn't have) need to even think about it."


 * こんなものに意味はない. "There is no (doesn't have) meaning in something like this".


 * 並行世界ですらない、生命のない虚数空間. The meanings of ない in these two cases are the same. You wrote "space of imaginary numbers that doesn't even have life", right?


 * I realize that 並行世界ですらない can translate to "It's not even a parallel world," but that makes no sense in this context. "An imaginary space. Not even a parallel world." Can you tell me exactly how those two phrases connect to each other? "An imaginary space. Does not even have parallel worlds" makes sense to me. The next phrase 生命のない虚数空間 also uses "to not have."


 * I'm okay with leaving "World of the Other Side" as ambiguous, but automatically writing it in as "Interior" is jumping to conclusions.


 * -- Zodiac21 (talk) 12:07, January 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand. I'm not disputing the meaning of ~ない. I'm disputing your interpretation of ~(で)すら.


 * 虚数世界（裏側の世界. 並行世界ですらない、生命のない虚数空間）


 * The reader is told initially that it's a World of Imaginary Numbers. What this means is unclear, and so the definition is clarified: It's "the World of the Interior." Not even a "Parallel World"; a space of imaginary numbers without life.


 * Not "doesn't have parallel worlds," which would be written as 並行世界がない. The way ~(で)すらない's construction translates is just as "it is not even (preceding phrase)."


 * Example of ~がない:


 * 並行世界がないのなら、選択できないことになる.
 * If there are no parallel worlds, then it becomes the case that there are no choices.


 * More examples of ~(で)すらない:


 * 近似値ですらない not even an approximate numerical value
 * トイレに行く時間すらない not even enough time to go to the toilet
 * あなたは私の彼女ですらない. You're not even my girlfriend.
 * 子供ですら計算できる Even a child can calculate it.


 * When you have a construction like 並行世界ですらない、生命のない虚数空間, the continuity between the first and second segments works like this: (first phrase)-ない describes (2nd noun). As such:


 * 並行世界ですらない虚数空間


 * It's the 虚数空間 that is being described. A grammatically correct translation of the entire sentence becomes: "A space of imaginary numbers without life that isn't even a parallel world."


 * If you refer to the dictionary definition, ~(で)も and ~(で)さえ are considered equivalent constructions.


 * But I don't really want to continue the discussion on grammar, because it'll just be more of "we disagree on the interpretation." Therefore, let's go at it from a different angle.


 * In Watsonian interpretation: Why stress "not even a parallel world" specifically, assuming that this translation is correct? Because if a reader merely sees the explanation that "it's a World of Imaginary Numbers," they might assume that it refers to some arbitrary other reality or dimension, per standard Japanese media tropes. (Metallia from Sailor Moon was sealed inside the Dark Dimension, etc.) The clarification is that, no, she was sealed within "the World of the Interior," which doesn't even classify as a parallel world.


 * Assuming for a moment that your interpretation is correct, what exactly are we supposed to take from the statement "it doesn't even have parallel worlds"? Does there "not being parallel worlds" have any particular meaning, or serve any particular function? Is Tiamat weakened or more securely imprisoned because there are no parallel worlds to whatever "place" where she was kept? (Clearly, this isn't the case because she broke out right after awakening.)


 * The assumption follows from Mewarmo's translation is that the World of Imaginary Numbers is simply some sort of "space of containment." Not another timeline or parallel reality. Just a space without life. As I said, at BL, this is also the interpretation that CanonRap, arai, and Reiu gave, when I approached them for a second opinion. As of right now, you're the only translator I've spoken to that insists otherwise.


 * Note that I'm not using the pressure of numbers as evidence to claim that your interpretation is incorrect. If you want, I can put you into contact with CanonRap and arai, and you can go over the grammar with them yourself. I might even be able to get Mewarmo to talk it through with you. All I'm telling you is that, at the very least, myself and Mewarmo disagree with your translation.


 * -- Fallacies (talk) 14:15, January 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * I see what you're trying to say now; it's less a problem about grammar than it is about the particular meaning that this phrase would have on the "world," if I'm understanding you correctly. Because as far as I can see, 並行世界ですらない can grammatically translate as "doesn't even have parallel worlds," or "not even parallel worlds exist."


 * I don't think the conclusion that you drew in that "it doesn't even qualify as a parallel world" is correct though, because the usage of ~(で)すら would mean that the defined word has to be "greater" in some way than the preceding word. There's another interpretation that does make sense though.


 * From what I understand (and frankly, I didn't see this until you pointed it out), the interpretation of the phrase, "not even a parallel world," would emphasize it as a prison that's "even more" inescapable than a parallel world (in this case, however, the Reverse Side of the World would probably disqualify. Also, the Interior of the World has life, just not humans).


 * To explain my position, I think that the "World of the Other Side" is a separate world, hence the difference in wording. Because it's a whole another world, it has to be defined clearly to explain how "different" of a world it is. Lo and behold, a description: "wow, it doesn't even have parallel worlds and has no life? That's sure different from our world!"


 * To support my position of the "World" not being the reverse side, Solomon says that his Ars Paulina exists outside of the universe (sky) and outside of time, in the space of imaginary numbers. I think this is a similar case.


 * -- Zodiac21 (talk) 19:10, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

Beast II (Part 2)
It's not the conclusion that I drew. It's the conclusion that Mewarmo drew in the translation of the Tiamat profile, which was subsequently confirmed by a consensus of other translators from Beasts' Lair.

Regarding Goetia's Temple of Time: The moment that the disruption of the seven Singularities was removed, the Temple began to merge back into the World of Man, overlapping the space occupied by Chaldea 2016. Ergo, the Temple of Time was indeed a Reality Marble outside "beyond the sky" and "outside of time," but only in the condition that the timeline itself wasn't functional.

Once the timeline was functional again, it was merged back into normal time within the World of Man, which means that the space itself wasn't very far from the World of Man in the first place; it wasn't actually outside of the universe of possibilities represented by human history. Extella Materials states that the "universe" is able to encompass multiple timelines (but there are several different things referred to as "universes," which are explicitly different from each other; "the universe of record," or "the universe of awareness" for example). The Temple was in the end really only outside of normal space-time due to the incineration of the Human Order.

The assertion that the Interior of the World and the World of the Interior of the same is also within Mewarmo's translation. A rough reasoning for this is as below:

The Interior of the World is a massive domain that contains places like Scathach's Country of Shadows and the Isle of Avalon, among others; the Tower of the End that is Rhongomyniad stands on the boundaries of the World of Man, but in a location that can't be reached by humans. After the Age of Separation that Gilgamesh lived within, the Underworld of Ereshkigal and the Sea of Dawn that lies under the Underworld -- the Abyss that Gilgamesh is said to have walked through for the Herb of Immortality -- were excluded from the World of Man, removing them from the underground of Iraq.

In places like the Country of Shadows and the Underworld, basic phenomenon such as "Death" function differently; and Avalon is explicitly not subject to the time axis of that humans observe. The reason Gilgamesh asked Ereshkigal and Ishtar to trap Tiamat within the Underworld is that, like her original prison, it is considered a World Without Life -- a circumstance that Gilgamesh thinks will remove Tiamat's definitional immortality (she is said to be the first born and the last to die; she cannot die except in a world where she is the only remaining life, or nearly so).

In Tsukihime materials for Marble Phantasm, Nasu states:


 * 空想具現化


 * マーブル・ファンタズム. 読んで字の如く、自らの空想を具現化し、世界を変化させる能力. 精霊種が持つ自然への干渉能力.


 * ただし、変化させることのできるのは自身（精霊）と自然物のみという制限があり、自然から離れてしまった、例えば人工物を変化させることはできない.


 * 精霊の住むとされる異界（別世界ではない）であるところの隠れ里や常春の国といったものは、精霊の描いた空想が具現化したものであるとされる. アルクェイド・ブリュンスタッドの居城「千年城ブリュンスタッド」も同様.


 * 【関連項目】固有結界

精霊の住むとされる異界（別世界ではない）-> The Otherworlds that Faeries live within (not another / a separate world).

In other words, these "small" locations that are the habitats of the Faeries are already considered "Otherworlds" (異界, ikai), regardless of their actual location. However, he clarifies that they aren't to be considered "another / a separate world" (別世界, betsu sekai). This is exactly the same construction as the statement of clarification that contains 並行世界ですらない. All of those locations named above qualify as Otherworlds.

The point is that the Interior of the World contains many domains, and even without necessarily considering the Interior of the World, there are many domains that lie outside of the World of Man, or cannot be accessed by humans. If any of these domains happens to be a World of Imaginary Numbers Without Life, I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

-- Fallacies (talk) 04:34, January 19, 2017 (UTC)