One more redirection needed : Angra Mainyu. Byakko 23:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Are we redirecting this page to Angra Mainyu or the other way round? - RexRox 04:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done. Byakko 10:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The info on the revenge attack was taken from the Servant classes article and most likely refers to the noble phantasm False Copy of Inscribed Creation (called thus on the other wiki). Moreover, since the "Angra Manyu" is the only Servant ever in this class, it is safe to assume that all "information that only applies to" him also applies to the class as a whole. :) --Koveras Alvane 06:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't work. First, there are two Avengers. The original Avenger in the 3rd war that didn't even have anything and was completely worthless and the Shiro Avenger with Verg Avesta in hollow ataraxia. Adding a revenge trait makes it sound like an inherent ability of the class when there really aren't any.
- The Avenger in FHA is the same as the one of the third war. In the third war, he was summoned as the diform shadow. That shadow was killed and corrupted the Grail. In FSN, it possessed Sakura. Then in FHA, it is possessing Shirou (or creating a copy of him, I think it's still not known if it's the real Shirou or a copy).
- Avenger = Angra Mainyu = the farm guy that was sacrified. ultimately, saying that something is specific to Angra Mainyu is the same as saying it's specific to Avenger, since you can just as well see it as "Avenger is simply another name for Angra Mainyu". It's like, if you managed to summon another person who was not in any of the classes, you would create a whole class only for himself, and nobody else would go in it : that's exactly what happened. And so, Verg Avesta is the NP of Avenger. Unless I missed it in the scene where he uses it, there's zero reason to claim that the Avenger in the 3rd war didn't have Verg Avesta, especially since we know it's the same Avenger/shadow. And he definitely didn't gain it by possessing Shirou, how would he if Shirou never had it ?
- It might sound a little weird to say it's the NP of the class Avenger, but then again, we have the Assassin class which always has a NP named Zabaniya, afterall, that's exactly the same. --Byakko 10:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Play the damn game again.
- Ilya says it plain and simple that the original Avenger was completely worthless and didn't even have a Noble Phantasm when Bazett goes to the castle to talk to her.
- The Avenger in hollow ataraxia is the same guy and not the same guy at the same time because the first Avenger was just nothingness and the second one was the same nothingness just shaped into something like Shirou.
- "the first Avenger was just nothingness and the second one was the same nothingness just shaped into something like Shirou." Uh... That's what I said, he's the same. Not two Avengers, one. Just that the second time, he takes Shirou's form.
- I did miss the part where Ilya said he didn't have a NP the first time around, though (yet one could argue he simply couldn't use it because he was a void). But that doesn't make him a "different" Avenger, not enough to say there are two Avengers; it's still Angra Mainyu, the guy who got killed by his village. Just possessing different bodies. Saber/Arturia in the fourth war didn't have Avalon, she recovers it in Fate, that doesn't make her a different Arturia ; in HF she gets Blackened, that doesn't make her a different Arturia. Same person. --Byakko 14:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm saying you can't just add that a Revenge attack is characteristic of the Avenger class. This article is stll just a class description, not a character profile, which means you have to use the general rule for what's the original purpose of the class, as in what most members of the class are supposed to have.
- The point is the Angra Mainyu in hollow can't be used as a base to describe anything because that Angra Mainyu never existed (I don't see how you can argue that he couldn't use it since she says didn't have not couldn't use; plus even he admitted that what he was using was a fake). That's the thing that kept being repeated over and over again in the game. Also the only thing that could be called the pure Angra Mainyu Avenger's NP is his evil nature itself (that's in the Heaven's Feel route).
- Oh, yes, that. Yes, I also agree that there's not much point in putting "revenge attack" in here rather than in Angra Mainyu's article. Just like we don't put Zabaniya as a skill of the Assassin class :P As for what his NP is - I was already talking about the copy. And I still pointed out that I did miss that scene where Ilya speaks about it. --Byakko 00:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see why we had to go all around like this when what I wanted to say was pretty much plain and simple but whatever. I don't see exactly what you meant as "I was already talking about the copy" from rereading what you typed but, alright.
- Assassin's case is more understandable since all Assassins are supposed to be Hassans and all Hassans are supposed to have Zabaniyas.
- I'm happy to see you two agree on this point, but the next question that arises is whether we need this article at all? If we separate Angra Mainyu from the class itself, it will only contain the class name, the fact that it's a non-standard class, and a link to the Angra Mainyu article. Might as well be a redirect. :) --Koveras Alvane 07:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- For the sake of consistency I'd say yes, actually. All the other classes have an article, this one can have one too, even if there's not much. To lay down all the classes, have them all listed in a class list, like a set-up standard. --Byakko 08:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- will there be a seperate article created for f/ha avenger? or will it just be included in the "Avenger" article? for consistency i think a seperate article should be made 126.96.36.199 11:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Check the "known avengers" section, it's already planned, just not done. --Byakko 21:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)