Stats? Edit

What are his stats? 20:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)Solar

Low. Very low. They are never released, but we can assume that they are either all E or E–, or too low to be ranked on the scale. --Murderofcrows 00:46, May 28, 2011 (UTC)
Shall we also assume, because he was a typical villager during life, that is the reason there are no skills listed under either his Class or his Personal sets? Zahadrin (talk) 03:44, March 18, 2013 (UTC)
That's a reasonable assumption, but there isn't any proof so we can't put that in the article. Murderofcrows (talk) 18:05, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
Never wanted it in the article. Just wanted a possible answer and understanding of his character. After all, knowing as much as possible about this series is something I really want to do. Zahadrin (talk) 01:43, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Ah, well, it would probably be better to look on TYPE-MOON forums like Beast's Lair, where they do speculations about this kind of story. The Wiki is only for the official material, so you won't have much luck finding the inferences you're looking for here. Murderofcrows (talk) 01:50, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Speculation and Rumor are worse than actual fact, I'm afraid. Nor do I hold much liking for the people of Beast's Lair. Zahadrin (talk) 02:18, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Well, no shit it's less reliable than fact, but since speculation is a synonym for assumption, you're not going to find any fact about this. Conjecture is all we've got regarding the topic of Avenger's skills. Murderofcrows (talk) 16:51, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Actually assumption is baseless without evidence and Speculation is based on incomplete evidence. For example, an assumption would be that Avenger likes cupcakes. A speculation would be that villager or no, he has been raised to the level of Heroic Spirit, and since other servants with no combat experience, like William Shakespeare and the like still have at least an E in their lowest stats. So under this basis, since he is basically the weakest servant ever, E or E- might be the minimum of his stats. I find this to be a fairly reasonable basis since other than Strange/Fake's Caster, there doesn't seem to be another servant who could possibly have stats lower than E. Unfortunately this cannot be confirmed by an official source so we can't use it, but it's not like working from evidence we do have is the worst thing in the world. It's like Sherlock Holmes. We can infer facts from the information we do have. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 11:53, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
  • Assumption: The act of taking for granted, or supposing a thing without proof; an unwarrantable claim authenticated by means of belief; a conjecture supposed to be true, especially without valid proof.
  • Speculation: The act or process of reasoning a priori (based on hypothesis rather than experiment) from premises given or assumed; an inference based on inconclusive evidence; mere conjecture.
The only true difference between the two of these is that an assumption is claimed to be true without proper support, while a speculation is claimed to be probably true without proper support. They are generally treated as being functionally synonyms with supposition, conjecture, hypothesis, and postulation. The only reason I used the term "assumption" in the first place is because it was originally said "shall we also assume[...]"; if you really want to get technical about this, what should have been written is not "assumed" but rather "supposed" since the statement is an assumption made to account for known facts ("[...]because he was a typical villager during life[...]"). However, this is horribly pedantic and effectively a useless "nitpick" in the end, and my the point of my message still remains "conjecture is all we've got regarding the topic of Avenger's skills", which has nothing to do with the technical differences between "assume" and "speculate". Murderofcrows (talk) 16:51, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Having played Fate/Extra CCC, Anderson comments he is completely useless in battle and his stas is ranked about E so Avenger most likely the same. Nikonu (talk) 02:20, April 30, 2013 (UTC)
While that makes a lot of sense, everything mentioned in Fate/Extra and Fate/Extra CCC can only be attributed to the Extra spinoff content, since it is confirmed that that franchise is alternate continuity to the original Fate series. As there is ample evidence of the two continuities not being equivalent in many ways — such as the cameo of 'EMIYA' from main Fate continuity in CCC, even though the 'Playable Archer' technically originates from the same person — we cannot assume that Fate/Extra continuity's Avenger is the same as the one in the main Fate continuity. So, we can agree that what Anderson said "seems plausible enough" but we cannot conclude that it is true for Fate/stay night nor Fate/hollow ataraxia. Murderofcrows (talk) 15:59, April 30, 2013 (UTC)

Third War? Edit

It comes to my attention that Fate/Zero generally implies Jubstacheit von Einzbern was Avenger's master in the third war, so how do we go about adding that to the Infobox?

We don't because that's false. --Byakko 02:28, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if it is simply a translation error or not, but Iri does say "During the previous Heaven’s Feel, not only did Grandfather Acht lose his Servant" during volume three. EGGS 02:55, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
I don't have the book on hand ATM but she said that the same way an Einzbern Master 60 years later would say Acht lost Saber in the 4th War (ignoring not only Irisviel but also Kiritsugu). Remember, they're total control freaks, Acht is the family head since the days of Justizia, and there's no reason he'd go to war himself when he can just have a homunculus do it. He also definitely had a hand in trying to cheat the system to summon "the devil", so you can see why she'd say "his" Servant. But there's no way and no reason he fought by himself, that's just not how the Einzbern family does things (and also that's just how homunculus n° 54926 Irisviel would say it). ... Also, looking at the text at Baka-Tsuki, the whole section it's in is rather poorly worded. An example of why translations of a translations with interpretations inbetween are bad. --Byakko 12:25, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
Actually Acht hasn't been around Since Justica, he's been around since the second war, but there's nothing saying he was alive in her time. Also you say there's no reason, but after failing in the second war, the old "Do it yourself" saying springs to mind, especially since he would be a very powerful magus, had planned to arm himself with a powerful servant that would require a lot of prana to maintain and he would make an appropriate guard for the vessel, which at that time wasn't a living creature but an actual physical grail. Further more Irisviel was more than just another homunculus, she was the new vessel, a mother and pretty independant. Making her less likely to put a generalisation on it. I personally find your argument a tad presumptuous as you state what you think the Einzbern would or wouldn't do, as opposed to just saying there isn't enough evidence for it. Hawkeye2701 17:05, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Angra Mainyu Redirect to Avenger Edit

Why does Angra Mainyu redirect to Avenger if the article says Avenger is NOT Angra Mainyu? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Todd-sama 19:42, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

The article doesn't say that. If you read the thing, it says that he originally wasn't, but was recorded into the Throne of Heroes as such due to all the world's evils being pinned on him when he was sacrificed, and after he died in the Third War, the Grail granted the wish he ended up having and made him into the embodiment of all the world's evil, basically making him into Angra Mainyu. Well, that is the cliff notes version of it. The article explains it much better than I do.--Otherarrow 22:26, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Splitting the article Edit

true that there is only one Avenger, but perhaps we should split the article into two different article to differentiate the Avenger that appearing in Hollow Ataraxia and the one appearing in Fate/Zero and Heaven's Feel

the one appearing in Hollow Ataraxia is incarnation of man who is branded with name of Angra Mainyu against his wish and the one appearing in Fate/Zero and Heaven's Feel supposed to be different existence created when Holy Grail recognize Avenger(from third war and Hollow Ataraxia) as humanity's wish for existence that symbolize all evil in this world.

that might help us to clear some confusion... after all while Avenger(from third war and Hollow Ataraxia) is evil, he still forgave and tolerated humanity for whatever sins they may cause while hating them. while the one appearing in Fate/Zero and Heaven's Feel is simply evil and never truly confirmed as same existence as the one from hollow ataraxia

Dainsleaf 01:40, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Gilgamesh's line Edit

"Gilgamesh specifically mentions 5.6 billion curses for an unknown reason." is mentioned in his Phantasm description. If I remember correctly, Fate/Stay Night is set some time in the 90s, and the world population only reached 6 billion in 1999. So it seems likely for the time period that he's giving the closest estimate to the human population of the world. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 16:06, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Fate/Zero is set in 1994. World population in 1994 was about 5.6 billion. (source) Reizeron (talk) 06:13, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Angra Mainyu Phantam? Edit

Since Angra Mainyu is in the list of phantasms, should we add it to Avenger's infobox? Also should we maybe create a seperate article for it? Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:04, April 30, 2013 (UTC)

Class Skill Edit

What kind of Class Skill is "Unknown"? Zahadrin (talk) 17:09, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

It was probably just put as that instead of leaving it blank, unless he mentions that he has one without revealing its name. EGGS (talk) 17:12, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
I figured it was something like that. Since it had no reference, I thought it was a false edit.Zahadrin (talk) 17:44, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
It's actually stated in Fate/complete material III at page 15.Nikonu (talk) 18:11, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Connection to Beast II Edit

According to Tiamat's page, in Fate/Grand Order the "Black Mud of the Grail" - here identified as being Angra Mainyu's "All the World's Evils" - is stated by Kingu to be Tiamat's Chaos Sea ability - or at the very least related to/similar to it. Should this information not be mentioned here? Arawn 999 (talk) 18:05, January 23, 2017 (UTC)

Killing PowerEdit

Angra Mainyu says that he has immense capability of mass murdering humansm only rivaled by Primate Murder and Type: Mercury. But through what means does Angra Mainyu have such great killing abilities. Primate Murder has a natural advantage against all primates and Type: Mercury is an Ultimate One, so their powers I can understand, but what makes Angra Mainyu so good.

Also, is this an ability he has as a Heroic Spirit? Not a skill, but just a general capability that he can employ. Maybe those with more knowledge could help me. Alterdream (talk) 14:29, September 21, 2017 (UTC)

My guess was that it refers to the cursed mud his Grail-merged form emits, since that's what Gilgamesh was planning on using to purge the planet of those unworthy of his rule. Arawn 999 (talk) 15:14, September 21, 2017 (UTC)
He's Angra Mainyu, All The World's Evil. He's the best at killing people because he is the source of everything that is evil in the world. It's literally how he was created, whenever someone commits evil, it's his fault. His Verg Avesta is pretty bad as a Noble Phantasm for a Servant to hold, but it's basically taking credit for whenever anyone tries to kill someone, and as a NP that becomes taking the enemy's attack and reflecting it unto them. It doesn't mean that he has high physical or magical power that could wipe out anyone, he's just a concept, so don't expect the puny shadow that's vaguely shaped like a human to go on a slaughtering spree, even when he disguises himself as Shirou.
Primate Murder is probably a level above him because he's the Beast of Gaia, a weapon of Nature (also one of the primordial Beasts, the evils that Humanity as a whole must overcome), and Nature ranks above Humanity's own power to destroy itself. Then Type-Mercury is probably the "representative" of anything that comes from outside of the planet, think of nything up in space that threatens to blow up the planet. 23:25, September 21, 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. But I'm pretty sure that Type Mercury is just the Ultimate One of Mercury, not a representative of all that comes from space.Alterdream (talk) 12:16, September 24, 2017 (UTC)
Yes, he's only from Mercury. But in the overall story, he/it's a stand-in for the things that come from space. In Notes, you had all the calamities from space laying waste on the planet and its inhabitants, that's where he/it stands, what he represents as a threat level. 14:10, September 24, 2017 (UTC)
Aah, got it. Alterdream (talk) 20:36, September 24, 2017 (UTC)

Official English Name Edit

Should we mention somewhere that the official English name for Avenger is "Aŋra Mainiiu" according to Fate/Grand Order? Arawn 999 (talk) 18:47, April 19, 2018 (UTC)

In trivia, yes. However that translation is unique to F/GO and has no place being here. TheMythicGamer (talk) 04:34, April 21, 2018 (UTC)
It’s a proper way to spell the name. FGOM III also uses it. It should definitely be included, but we won’t be changing the name uniformly or anything. EGGS (talk) 11:06, April 21, 2018 (UTC)

The only part that FGOM III shares with the translation is the "ŋ"; Mainyu is spelled as "Mainiuu" TheMythicGamer (talk) 05:02, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

The thing with the translation FGO uses is that it's not wrong, but it's a weirdly outdated one to use. Most, if not all, other sources have used Angra Mainyu- not just in Fate, but in general, for a long time now. There's no "ng" sound, so that's what "ŋ" is. Aŋra Mainiiu is a literal Avestan translation and has the same pronounciation as Angra Mainyu- but using the former is just...well, a little pretentious, haha. It's sort of using an old translation just for the sake of using it, while a much more clear one exists. 2601:189:381:6936:89EA:C626:D0D8:600B 21:38, May 5, 2018 (UTC)

Avenger pages need reworking Edit

This is something that has been honestly bothering me for a while, but having the Angra Mainyu info split across three different pages (well, in theory, in reality its only two different pages since the Black Iri page is painfully bare and all the info on her is instead replicated on both of the other pages) is honestly confusing to me and makes trying to parse out just who the character is and what he does hard to follow in some places and just redundant in others.

If its at all possible, I'd suggest either merging all three and rewriting things to fit together in a way that flows naturally (start on the nameless human's backstory, go into "Avenger the faceless shadow", explain how he began to manifest as All The World's Evil in the Grail, then how he possessed Iri and later Shirou). If that is unworkable, instead focus more on dividing them out based on host (this page would be solely for "Angra Mainyu in the body of Shirou" and anything that relates to Black Iri goes onto her page, anything that relates to Angra as an entity independent from his hosts would go on the "main" page) instead of having this be the "main" page and the other two just kinda hangers on dependent on this one for context.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:24, June 17, 2018 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the pages should definitely be reworked, but they should remain separate. The blank slate summoned by the Einzberns, the god in the grail, and the offshoots merging with existing personalities are totally different entities all possessing the name Angra Mainyu. If there is ever a Third Holy Grail War story, I imagine it would be best to split out the blank slate as well. If the pages are done properly, there should be no issue in them overlapping.
The problem with them all being on the same page is you will either have the "personality", "appearance", and "abilities" sections filled with three+ subheaders each, or the "forms" subsection will basically become mini-articles in themselves with multiple subheaders each. The only shared section would be the "Identity" section, which can be ported over in the same way as Caster (Fate/Zero) and Saber (Fate/Grand Order - Gilles). It isn't as much of a problem right now because the pages are fairly small, but it would just be a bloated mess if the article was truly complete. It also helps in terms of linking if they are separate, as talking about Avenger in the context of hollow is completely different than talking about it in Heaven's Feel. EGGS (talk) 17:25, June 17, 2018 (UTC)
I did a mock up merger in my sandbox of a merged page and it mostly moves smoothly...mainly because as it is, 90% of the info on Avenger is already on this page, even stuff that relates solely to Black Iri or the "god". But yes, if Black Iri and the FSN Avenger were fleshed out more (a lot of FSN Avenger's page is flat reproduced from this one as it is) I can easily see it becoming unwieldy as you fear.
I agree that best bet is a cleaner split between the "blank slate" base form (which, as the base "personality", using the term loosely, would serve as a hub page I suppose), "All the World's Evil" formed from the grail trying to grant the blank's wish, and the two Avengers that come about from Angra Mainyu possessing people. With that said, is "Angra Mainyu" in FSN specified as being of the Avenger class, or is this something we are applying retroactively since its technically the same entity as the HA Avenger?--Otherarrow (talk) 18:05, June 17, 2018 (UTC)
Yes, the form within the Grail is referred to as Avenger within Heaven's Feel ("You measured up to my expectations, and you are about to give birth to Avenger."). Though I feel like it will likely be rebranded should the complete form appear in FGO, either Beast or some kind of offshoot of Beast. EGGS (talk) 18:23, June 17, 2018 (UTC)
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.