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Nobody can decide on how the Growth Process works here. This is problematic. What sources are people using? If we can get an idea where these variations are coming from, maybe we can solve it. My primary source is the Mirror Moon translation of Tsukihime, based of Arcueid and Ciel's explanations and Roa's memories. In those versions, The Dead are something created intentionally by the parent vampire, as are potential ghouls; the parent decides which to create when it injects blood into the victim. A new vampire has power that reflects it's original abilities as a human, plus a portion of the parent's strength (This is how Roa became so powerful, and why Satsuki becomes a Vampire). Narbareck states that it takes about a century for a ghoul to reach Dead Apostle level in Roa's memories. The progression rate seems to be a matter of survival rather than actual ability to develop into higher stages. Arcueid states that most Dead Apostles do not receive any special powers besides their limited immortality from becoming a vampire. Their physical capabilities are developed just like a normal person's, they have just had more time to do so. This means that normal vampires can be killed by mundane means, so long as one has a way of canceling their Curse of Restoration. In the Tsukihime 2 prologue, at least one member of the Burial Agency (likely Karen) uses normal weaponry against vampires. Also, the chance of spontaneous vampirism like Satsuki likely has more to do with what type of victims vampires target. Sion became a vampire immediately as well. Vampires seem to avoid prey that threatens them. Also, Arcueid describes the victim rising as a ghoul only after the soul is freed from the cage of the body, suggesting that vampiric souls are actually not attached to their body at all. I have my own take on what this means, but I'll leave it out.--Twelveseal 04:10, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

"The Dead are something created intentionally by the parent vampire, as are potential ghouls; the parent decides which to create when it injects blood into the victim." Not all humans have the ability to become a vampire. Those who fail stay mindless at best, or don't become anything other than dead if the vampire is the one who fails, like Satsuki who couldn't do it properly.
"Sion became a vampire immediately as well." Immediately, after three years, yeah... She's not a vampire in MB, she's trying to resist it. Granted, she could remain a human that long because Wallachia was dormant and she could escape his influence.
That said, the other sources are the side material, the various dictionaries. --Byakko 14:23, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Are these dictionaries translated, and if they are, where can I find them? Please? I can't do anything with some of the external links. Japanese illiterate me.--Twelveseal 05:17, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Most of the translated stuff is already on the wiki. Some was translated specifically for articles here (mostly by Byakko), and the rest was gathered from old Fuyuki wiki and various other places... Generally, new material gets translated on The Beast's Lair forum (see sidebar), and ideally somebody moves it here... Well, there are translations at the forum nobody bothered to transfer, so you can dig through it for info. --Azaghal 14:34, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
When the source says Tsukihime Laboratory or Jonnobi or Tsukihime Dokuhon dictionary or Fate/Side Material encyclopedia, it means it was translated from there. Tsukihime Lab and Jonnobi are fanmade sites but usually considered fairly accurate and exhaustive, and the Dokuhon and Side Material are the actual official work. Jonnobi and Tsukihime Lab also take their sources from these official encyclopedias too, most of the time. --Byakko 10:19, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

top ten dead apostles?Edit

it's said in the wiki that the top ten apostles can't be killed by normal means. who are those top ten? let's say Roa is one of them, technically he can't be killed normally. Einnashe and Wallachia also can't because they don't have physical bodies. We don't have much info on him, but Rizo-Waal Strout is said to have immortality due to a time curse. Nrvnqsr Chaos is said to be unable to be killed even by Arcueid, probably because he can just regenerate in the chaos. Caubac Alcatraz is probably one of them, because he also lost his body and is now a padlock (lol).

  1. Roa
  2. Einnashe
  3. Wallachia
  4. Rizo-Waal Strout
  5. Nrvnqsr Chaos
  6. Caubac Alcatraz
  7. Altrouge Brunestud
  8. El Nahat

Any suggestions on the other ones?

Top 10 as in #1 to #10. The numbers are not just given for fun-sies. Waifu slayer (talk) 02:37, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
Nuh-uh, that can't be right. Numbers are just spots, Louvre was appointed as #10 even if he was very weak. Sandubadear (talk) 16:29, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
What are you talking about?
Having a treasure trove of artifacts that make Merem (artifact hoarder) jealous is weak?
Building a lair that took an entire Battlion of Cron to take down is weak?
Miraculously surviving the attack of a legion of Executor is weak?
He is innately weak, but compensated for it with other aspects. He just died like a bitch in Prologue because he got caught with his pants down and the plot demanded it. 
By your point, Gilgamesh is also WEAK. LOL. 
Also, the 27 DAA system is self-correcting. When someone unworthy was appointed the seat, they get quickly killed off by their own successor or other rogue DAA. Like how ORT got his seat, or Enhance got his seat. 
Waifu slayer (talk) 17:26, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

The text says "top ten dead apostles can't be killed by normal means". louvre was going to be killed normally, by either lorelei or enhance, but shiki happened to arrive first. it's not a matter of being strong or weak.

I understand. Maybe Altrouge is also in top 10 due to being a mix between a True Ancestor and a Dead Apostle? Sandubadear (talk) 20:10, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
Last time I checked, Blue Blood powered magecraft is not "normal means", and neither is a DEMONIC sword. I don't know what the heck you are talking about. All you need to kill top 10 is a Mystery greater than them. Special Circuits from an ancient lineage or a demonic blade can potentially do that. Also, Louvre was caught with his pants down. He did not even get a chance to arm himself. It's like calling a Servant worthless when you didn't even see the Noble Phantasm. 
As to Altrouge, she could have just killed the last guy that was in that seat. Waifu slayer (talk) 22:08, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
El Nahat maybe is too, because his body was destroyed and his stomach was turned into a Scripture, but even then he wasn't killed. Sandubadear (talk) 22:56, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
Dude, "hard to kill" is not the criteria here. The original context was that the top ten were great and old, you need powerful Concepts to defeat them. That's why they are hard to kill. El Nahat got pwn'd and GUTTED. Are you trolling or something?Waifu slayer (talk) 00:18, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

yes sandubadear maybe altrouge and nahat is too. i added them.

magus rarity? Edit

this is for sandubars recent edit

"nero, caubac, gransurg, ortenrosse, probably zepia.. not really rare" this is just five DAs and there also ancestors. the amount of dead apostles out there is relativlly high the were somewhere between 100-200 at louvre's party. i beleive the part about it being rare is from some source material(tsukihime? plus period?) so its word of god there but i'm not sure. its just that the strong ones are also magi.Skeith9 (talk) 14:40, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

ok, I reverted. Sure it's easier to find Dead Apostles who became vampires through being bitten by another Dead Apostle, because if a magus who became a DA bites someone, they will be of the former category. I don't know what I was thinking when I deleted that part lol. It's ok the way it was Sandubadear (talk) 14:49, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
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