http://lab.vis.ne.jp/tsukihime/dictionary2/fate014e.html (Original source is the hollow ataraxia scene.)
- Added at long last, sorry for the long delay. ... The whole text is about Ea, the sword itself ? It sounds a little odd to me, shouldn't it be Enuma Elish, the creation of Heaven&Earth ? It's what delayed me for so long, I'm still not completely sure I understood which one it is talking about. --Byakko 15:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Is Ea an Anti-World weapon in the respect it can damage the Aristoteles, or is it an Anti-World weapon in the regard it can only destroy Gaia? Also is it's ability to drill through Reality Marbles, as a Reality Marble is the manifestation of an inner WORLD. Obviously it can destroy a Reality Marble cos even Excalibur tore through UBW, but a Reality Marble like Crimison Moon's or one that cannot be destroyed by overpowering it. Basically is Ea a trump against Reality Marbles?
184.108.40.206 04:17, May 28, 2011 (UTC)Sebastian
in my perspective, i would say Ea has the power to destroy anything that fits the concept of being a "world". Surely, it is an Anti-reality marble noble phantasmVergilheartnet (talk) 13:41, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
Where is the counter force?Edit
Ea is able to tear open and destroy the reality itself so why isn't the counter force reacting at all? Archer is a counter guardian by nature but he's officially summoned as servant of a human rather than as a counter guardian. If Primate Murder is given authority to kill any human and is on a level of type Mercury then why does he get 7 Counter guardians as a counter and Gilgamesh gets none? He can end the world whenever he pleases so you'd expect Alaya to do something about it. It's like giving extremists an ICBM and trusting them to only use it for dropping leaflets.
220.127.116.11 22:22, September 18, 2013 (UTC)Scorpion
Okay, first thing's first. You have to remember that Gaia works a lot slower than you or I, what is a long time to us, is a flash in the pan for the planet. So it's likely that for the duration Gilgamesh has been manifest as a servant, the world didn't have time to manifest a specific Counter Force and likely uses Archer whenver he's on hand. As a matter of interest, Archer may in fact be Gaia's response to the black ichor from the Grail in the 4th War only manifest 10 years later when the Grail was prepared again, but that's getting off topic.
Secondly, Gilgamesh cannot "end the world whenever he pleases" While Ea is the Sword of Rupture, a world breaking weapon, it's attack output is only somewhat above that of Excalibur, thus why Sabre is able to clash against it using Excalibur. While she still comes out the loser, the difference isn't so great as to make it a pointless defensive measure. The sword is Anti-Worldd because it opposes Natural Law, not because it can take out the world in one blow. So even using Ea, to destroy the world would take Gilgamesh potentially years, all the while wasting prana he could not spare to use this ultimate weapon against people he could not care less about.
Which brings me to my third point. Gilgamesh is a Heroic Spirit. To the Throne of Heroes, this entails several things. For one, he's dead. The World is not going to bring about a counter force for something that can't survive the week without a prana supply, and can't use it's world breaking power without a plentiful one. Secondly, those Admitted to the throne and summoned by the Grail were originally Heroic Spirits. Gilgamesh, as the first hero of recorded history, does actually possess a hero's dignity and restraint. He does not waste Ea on things that he doesn't feel deserve it, so it's not trusting the extremists not to fire the missile, it's trusting the Russians or the Americans not to fire theirs when it holds no tactical advantage. As, and I cant believe I'm saaying this, Gilgamesh is technically a "Good" heroic spirit, the world has no reason to allign against him. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:35, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to point out two small things, if I may. One, you're mistaken that Ea's output is only somewhat above Excalibur. If the Wikia is right, Excalibur has a power of less than 200, while Ea has 4000. That's clearly more than somewhat. Second, Gilgamesh can survive longer than a week in the world without a master, due to Independant Action being A+ under Kirei. Granted, yes, under Tokiomi, he would be able to only last a week. Zahadrin (talk) 03:21, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not mistaken though, Like I said, while Ea is more powerful it's "Output" is only slightly higher. They both have the same range and maximum target number in the original visual novel, that and I can't find a reference for the power of Excalibur and the 4000 for Ea is it's damage. Excalibur only hits with the tip of its attack while the majority is just diffused light, but every part of Enuma Elish is destructive. It doesn't change the fact that, while like I said, Excalibur stll loses, their outputs are of a similar level, Which means Gil can only destroy as much at a given shot with Ea as Arturia can with Excalibur despite it's Anti-World trait.
As for his ability to maintain himself, that A+ is seemingly after Gilgamesh went through the corrupted Grail, which means it's indefinite because he has a physical body, either way, he still can't make use of Ea without a substitute supply of prana. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:19, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
This whole discussion is to the wrong direction. Refer to the entry for Heroic Spirits. Heroic Spirits with high enough Divinity are closer to Gods than men, and are on Gaia's side. He won't just end the world. Plus he views the world as his property anyways. If he ever becomes a threat to humanity as a whole, Alaya will intervene.
Af far as power goes we know that EA as at least 20x more powerfull than Excalibur. But we don't know how that figure is calculated and for all we know it could be exponential. It is ANTI-WORLD and not anti-city or anti continent so I think we can take it on faith that it can do what it says on the tin.
As for heroic spirits, the grail doesn't actually summon any real heroic spirits because it doesn't have enough power. What is does summon are "cheap" copies that are put into vessels and bound to its human masters.
And no Gilgamesh is no friend of humanity or the gods for that mater. His hatred of the gods is what decreased his divinity from A+ to "just" B. What Gilgamesh wants is to summon the grail and use it's power to "cleanse" the humanity that have become so weak that they are not even worthy to be ruled over. After the destruction of humanity he would rule the few that would survive.
That alone should provoke both Gaia as well as Alaya since the avenger might get very creative with destroying humanity and probably wouldn't spare nature. But my original point still stands. Where is the counter force!?
If Alaya were to ever intervene it would probably possess Gil's masters and compel them to force him to suicide or it would power up EMIYA or Arturia enough to ensure victory or send a seperate counter guardian (more than one probably).
Your thought process here showed that you may have misinterpreted how the Counter Force works. The Counter Force is the subconscious and works in subtle ways. The Guardians are the last, last resort. Usually the Counter Force just nudge things into place through what appears to be pure conincidence. The ENTIRE story of the main arc of KnK was about how the Counter Force foiled Araya's attempt at the Root. Did you see Guardians at all?
ok, just so you know, the counter force doesn't work like heroes who "save" the day, they're "cleaners", they clean up the mess left behind by the "evil doers" (e.g. Angra Mainyuu or some major catastrophe) to prevent further casualty to mankind, they don't prevent casualties, they only prevent them from spreading
next, Gilgamesh's Ea, the sword of rupture, has an output of 4000, yes, it's obviously stronger than Excalibur, but its attribute being called an anti-world noble phantasm doesn't make it capable to destroy "worlds", like an entire universe or something like that, with just one attack, it doesn't work like that. The theory of "anti-world" may not be the world as we know it, i know it's complicated, a world may refer to many places, it may refer to planets or Universe, or dimensions? Heck, we don't know that, only nasu knows the truth. HOWEVER, it does have the potential to destroy "worlds" , i don't expect something from Fate Extra CCC, where Gilgamesh pulled off a giant Enuma Elish happens in the Canon story, Fate Stay Night. So far, the true power of Ea was shown in Fate Hollow Ataraxia, it literally shows the "truth" of the world, but it didn't really destroy the world. To destroy the world, Gilgamesh would probably need some huge source of prana, possibly the Holy grail would be sufficient. So far, i agree with Hawkeye 2701 on this one. Gilgamesh did say he want to "cleanse" the world as he sees fit, but he was doing it by using the Holy grail, and we all know who is the "real threat" in this , it's not Gilgamesh, it's actually Angra Mainyuu within the Grail. Therefore, even what Gilgamesh wished happened, and so everyone dies and so on, after a while, the Counter Force would then appear to stop itVergilheartnet (talk) 16:37, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
Counter force works is subtle ways? Sure but they were a bit to subtle this time. The counter force didn't nudge anything. Did someone suddenly change their personality and started working towards destroying the grail? Not to mention counterforce didn't do anything to destroy the great grail after avenger was shut inside. Counter force in KnK? Well I only saw the movies but Araya's death was due to him getting desperate and provoking Shiki.
As far as subtlety goes you do realize that is only possible when there is still alot of time to avoid disaster (the rainforest example) right? Gil could power up his EA at any time. EA has its own prana so he can use it whenever the hell he wants. If impending DOOM is not the big enough reason to use counter guardians then I don't know what is.
About EA. It tears apart the very space itself leaving only destruction and hellfire behind. That's "the truth" it shows is a bit abstract since we can't really imagine heaven,.... For power reference you can watch Rider vs Gil in Fate/Zero. So whether it "only" destroys Earths reality marble or it actually ripps the planet apart is irrelevant. I compare EA to a planet wide kill switch and if I was Gaia or Alaya ( I know it's a collective will) I sure as hell wouldn't let a self centered jerk have it (or anyone else for that matter). And no Alaya can't possess Gil and stop him from going full power since even the grail couldn't affect him (much).
I think that counter force is pretty inconsistent. If it can nudge or even possess people then how can it let things go so far that it's forced to use counter guardians?Scorpion91 (talk) 13:53, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
Really, if you want to be taken seriously and not sounding ignorant, read the KnK book. The movie cut out large blocks of content due to time and the constraint of the medium. KnK itself is a exploration of the Counter Force and how it really works. The "inconsistency" you are claiming is not there if you the book. Nasu has been very consistent in his attitude towards the Counter Forces.--Waifu slayer (talk) 17:25, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
Who knows? Scorpion91, Alaya may have probably predicted that since the grail is contaminated by the spirit of Angra Mainyuu, it doesn't possess its "main function" as it used to, which was to open a path to Akasha(that's how it was meant to be used by the Tohsaka family), hence the Holy Grail war is not such a big deal. As far as Araya Souren goes, his experiment may attract the counter force, should he not create his bounded field, sooner or later, the counter force will interfere with his works and all his efforts will go to waste.
As for Ea, its powers are astronomical, Enuma Elish cannot even be called an "attack", but rather a wrath of nature, it's like divine punishment , but think about it, if Gilgamesh would so much wanted to "cleanse" the world , why didn't he just use Ea? Instead, he relied on the Holy grail, i suppose that's one of the reasons that Ea may not be proven as a global world wide scale threat. However, i hardly even think Angra Mainyuu may be able to engulf the entire world and kill every last humans on the earth, but giving it time, it may be able to do so. However, eventually, the Counter Force will arrive and clean up the mess, probably ......Vergilheartnet (talk) 13:26, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
I think we're getting off topic with the whole grail thing. Anyway like you said Vergilheartnet EA has astronomical powers so do you really think the world should be okay with letting Gil have it and trusting him not to use it (at full power)?
as for using the grail, the "truth" EA "shows" is a hellfire in which no organic life can exsist so I think even he realizes the EA would be a "bit" of an overkill for his plan.Scorpion91 (talk) 14:02, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
- It seems you don't understand how Counter Force really works. If Gilgamesh (or anyone) really decided to demolish the Earth, both Alaya and Akasha will kick in and snuff out said individual. Counter Forces are ALWAYS reactive, instead of PROACTIVE. In other words, anyone is allowed to have world-ending power, but if this person does not actually do it, nothing will happen.
- Read this for reference.
Counter Force (Others)
The Counter Force here is the safety device formed by the collective unconsciousness.
The prayer to avert the demise of mankind, Alaya.
And the prayer to extend the life of the planet, Gaia.
These are the two aspect of the Counter Force.
Both aspects have the goal of extending the existence of the current World. They will eradicate the factors that threaten to destroy the World at the moment of their occurance.
Since the Counter Force is the unconscious, its appearance draws no attention, and no one will recognize it.
The Counter Force is a formless spiral of power. It adjusts its scale based on the target that needs to be obliterated. The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory.
Normally, the Counter Force empowers "a normal person" to remove the factor that can trigger destruction. As a result, these individuals are worshiped as "Heroes".
Individuals who became Heroes through the aspect of Alaya are said to be integrated into Alaya after death. However, the accuracy of this statement is uncertain.
These individuals are also called Counter Guardians. The emphasis here is "Counter", because they have no autonomy and will only activate in response to an event.
Just wondering since when was it called sword of rupture since rupture's like an explosion and in the mirror moon translation it's called sword of separation which seems more correct to me Zodiac21 (talk) 10:22, January 13, 2015 (UTC)
Ea is supposedly a nameless weapon that isn't found in any legend but I found this tale Song of Ullikummi Which described Ea (Babylonian Water God of Creation) using something that sounds exactly like what Gilgamesh has. And it fits the discription of separating heaven and earth and being the most powerful weapon (took out a giant that cannot be killed by 70 gods). If they are the same weapon, how did it end up in Gilgamesh' vault? A Cosmic weapon like that is not gonna be left on the ground somewhere. Fbiuzz (talk) 14:54, October 13, 2015 (UTC)
Ea in UBW Edit
After Gil lost to Shirou, Ea fell to the ground and was left in Shirou's UBW. Does that mean it's still there? Could Shirou now grab it whenever he activates UBW? --IStoleThePies | Message Wall | Contributions 05:44, November 6, 2015 (UTC)
Remember gil has an auto retrival NP. Plus UBW is always manifested, once shirou ran out of juice it calapsed. He projects his inner world outside so once he ran out of mana, it just disapeared so it doesn't return inside of him. I think thats how it work anyways.
Was Ea copied by the Greater Grail? Edit
I know Shirou Emiya can never copy Ea.
But I read from here that all servants are just “copies,” made by the Greater Grail, which include Gilgamesh where I can assume their Noble Phantasms are also copies. So is this Ea the “original” Ea or is this Ea simply a “perfect copy” that works just as well as the original? If so, then I am assuming the Greater Grail can create a “perfect copy” of any other Noble Phantasms, such as Avalon.
Um, you're sort of right. As it stands, the grail communicates with the Throne of Heroes, the Throne containing the spirit of the Hero, including all their weapons, arms etc. When the Grail summons a hero, it is in fact creating a spiritual container (The class) to shove that hero into, thus limiting their abilities by the capacity of the container, which is why some heroes lose phantasms and abilities depending on the class they are. So while you could consider the servant a poor imitation of the hero, it is no less the hero themself, so Gilgamesh's Ea is still the original sword Ea, just manifested in this container.
Avalon is a different story, it's one of the Phantasms that hasn't entered the Throne of Heroes with their hero, it still exists in the modern world. So I don't think that the Throne (And by extension the Grail) can replicate something it doesn't contain. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 15:53, March 1, 2016 (UTC)
Edit by L002: Thank you so much Hawkeye2701. So, if this is the original Ea then, like how Avalon found it's way back to Saber in the fate route, you're saying that the Greater Grail was able to locate Ea, in the Throne of Heroes, and give to the "imitation" Gilgamesh so that he can use it, if I am interpreting this correctly.
No, the Greater Grail isn't responsible for retrieving the weapons for a Heroic Spirit, all that stuff is in the Throne of Heroes, It's like pouring water from a jug into a cup, but the shape of the cup determines what goes into it. Given that Ea is one of the only weapons in Gilgamesh's arsenal that is strictly his, he probably gets it no matter what class you summon him into, but Avalon, and Saber herself, aren't in the Throne of Heroes, so while she can be summoned as a Saber with all the abilities and things associated, you can't give her something she doesn't have, in that case, Avalon, the scabbard she lost. Also, please sign your posts at the end, there's a button marked 'signature' for it. Just push that before hitting publish. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 04:49, March 2, 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I was new to this so I didn't know about the signiture button. And my apologies, perhaps I worded it poorly, when I mentioned Avalon; I was using it as an example but it seems I worded that too poorly to cause confusion. I will just word it another way- As you mentioned it's like "pouring water from a jug into a cup," but in this case it is like inputting data, copied from the original data, into the proper hardware. But this is only the Servant, who are the copied "imitation". The Noble Phatasm, used by the Servant, is the "Original," as in the same exact weapon the Servant had in life; in Avalon's case, it is the "Original," meaning it wasn't recreated but it is the exact same Noble Phantasm Saber had used in her life. In Qin Shi Huang's case where one of his Noble Phantasms still existed on earth, which could've been used to summon him, the Grail can manifest Qin Shi Huang with the same Noble Phatasm, that is in a better condition as compared to the deteriorated modern catalyst. You mentioned "Gilgamesh's Ea is still the original sword Ea, just manifested in this container," I was interpreting that as this Ea was the "perfect data" of the original that existed when Gilgamesh was alive. In short, I was asking, during the Holy Grail War, is it the exact same Ea Gilgamesh used in his life or was it a "copied data" that was manifested along with Gilgamesh? For example, let's say two Gilgamesh had existed, at the same time, would both of them have Ea; in fate/strange fake, an interesting example mentioned if the Holy Grail War existed, in Amakusa Shirou Tokisada's era, then Amakusa Shirou Tokisada could have summoned a more powerful version of himself, so the same could apply for Gilgamesh, if the Holy Grail War took place in Gilgamesh's era, but the question is if both would have their own Ea?
- You're taking the term "copy" way too literally in both cases without understanding what it means.
- Shirou can't copy Ea because what he does is identify the material and history, reproduce the material, and shape it like the original one, but it is impossible for him to identify the material Ea is made of or reproduce it, because it doesn't exist on Earth and Shirou is limited by what he knows on Earth.
- On the other hand, the Throne is a perfect record of everything, regardless of xwhere it comes from, and while it is a subset of Alaya which is humanity only, it is also part of Akasha which is absolutely everything, so if the Throne has recorded that Gilgamesh used this weapon that isn't made of material from Earth, that record is perfect. The Servant system then looks at that record and takes a lump of soul particles or something (whatever it is), and shape it exactly like the original record. So the material not being from Earth is irrelevant, it's a perfect record of the original thing, therefore it can be considered the same as the original.
- If you understood that part of Kara no Kyoukai, think of how Touko's puppets work, they're so close to the original body that they're considered the exact same as the original Touko with her memories and soul. And if two Gilgameshs were somehow summoned at the same time, there probably wouldn't be any problem in having two copies of Ea at the same time (if that is at all possible). But the object that existed nearly 5 thousand years ago is probably long gone, much like the body Touko had when she was born is long gone.
- Please use line breaks, your formatting is a bit difficult to read. 18.104.22.168 09:26, March 2, 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry, I will try to use line breaks in the future. Thank you for your knowledge. L002 (talk) 12:28, March 3, 2016 (UTC)
Ea as a Broken Phantasm Edit
Although this is completely impossible due to Archer and Shirou being unable to trace and project Ea and the chances of Gilgamesh permanently breaking down his most treasured weapon being less than 0, however in the impossible scenario that one of the Emiyas managed to replicate Ea and turn it into a Broken Phantasm arrow or arguably more unlikely scenario where Gilgamesh himself turned it into a Broken Phantasm and fired it from his gate.
- Probably not much, in all honesty. The weapon may have some power, but from how its power is described, it's force, which is Enuma Elish rather than Ea, is "twenty times Gilgamesh's Strength Stat, with a random chance of adding his Mana Stat to that, and it increases per the wealth of the owner". So, while the Weapon is capable of unleashing theoretical Worldly Destruction, the object itself isn't that power, much like a Gun isn't it's Bullets. Bullets have high killing power, but the Gun itself is nothing but a tool to use for that effect. But that's my theory on it. Zahadrin (talk) 07:32, October 1, 2017 (UTC)
I don't know. On the one hand, I'd say it probably wouldn't be stronger than Enuma Elish, but on the other hand, we've seen that the projectiles Archer uses often maintain the properties of the weapon, such as Hrunting increasing in power per hit.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:45, October 1, 2017 (UTC)