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:::I hope that this wall of text explanation will finally moves you somewhere. >_<
 
:::I hope that this wall of text explanation will finally moves you somewhere. >_<
 
:::--[[User:Otakuman007|Otakuman007]] ([[User talk:Otakuman007|talk]]) January 8, 2020 (UTC)
 
:::--[[User:Otakuman007|Otakuman007]] ([[User talk:Otakuman007|talk]]) January 8, 2020 (UTC)
:::I understand what your saying but those images (like that flag) are fanservice for us because they know what they're delivering and what we "want". Like in the main story of something like Sailor Moon or Madan ou Vanadis, there would be no way that the main heroine would ever do something like be in a bunny suit except through merchandise or "service" artwork ( A minor thing: I've said something like suggestive crush when I first worked on that relationship info which is why it confused me why you're now saying it should "suggesting" when earlier you said "obvious crush" like some fact). 
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:::I understand what your saying but those images (like that flag) are fanservice for us because they know what they're delivering and what we "want". Like in the main story of something like Sailor Moon or Madan ou Vanadis, there would be no way that the main heroine would ever do something like be in a bunny suit except through merchandise or "service" artwork ( A minor thing: I've said something like suggestive crush when I first worked on that relationship info which is why it confused me why you're now saying it should "suggesting" when earlier you said "obvious crush" like it's a fact). 
:::Regardless, at the end of it, judging by what I see, it appears this is put under "interpretation" (doesn't matter which way) which is somehting EGG doesn't want despite how we both believe "see something". When you say "suggesting crush" can we say with confidence if that is "absolute fact" or simply us. I said earlier how I'm trying to add citations to prove my information (reason why I chose sisters and friends because sources like Drei chapter 40 and 41) and make it sound less like me and more from the source. Do we have any citations that can help anchor your idea (hopefully not be open for "interpretation or fanservice") ? [[User:WhalBP|WhalBP]] ([[User talk:WhalBP|talk]]) 22:35, January 18, 2020 (UTC)
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:::Regardless, at the end of it, judging by what I see, it appears this is put under "interpretation" (doesn't matter which way) which is somehting EGG doesn't want despite how we both believe "see something". When you say "suggesting crush" can we say with confidence if that is "absolute fact" or simply us. I said earlier how I'm trying to add citations to prove my information (reason why I chose sisters and friends because sources like Drei chapter 40 and 41) and make it sound less like me and more from the source. Do we have any citations that can help anchor your idea (hopefully not be open for "interpretation or fanservice") ? [[User:WhalBP|WhalBP]] ([[User talk:WhalBP|talk]]) 22:36, January 18, 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:36, 18 January 2020

Welcome

Hi, welcome to TYPE-MOON Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the File:HisKoha.jpg page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! EGGS (talk) 00:16, June 19, 2015 (UTC)

Relationship Page

Because you're not doing it, I'll be taking the liberty of moving this topic here where I believe it should be taking place. I apologize for not understanding your POV, but this is what I got:

I'm not denying the "attraction" part Miyu and Illya has towards each other (crush as you call it; I actually do know what it means and get it's not the same as love but the way you were going at it, it made it feel you were going that way), but with other aspects being placed on it, I don't see it as simple as that. One reason invovles how that aspect is often used as a "comedy skit or fanservice" rather than the actual story. The other reason is because of the more "evidential and story driven understanding" of Miyu's feelings towards Illya is definitely friendship, I often see the "crush" Miyu has for Illya more as a sense of dedication towards her which is then often used for fanservices for people like us to enjoy and actually want to happen (like that flag picture you posted on the relationship). As a result, I'm don't think I'm seeing this as "are they or not?", but an actual understanding on how Miyu feels. There is also how you went as far saying Miyu having a crush on Kuro where that is definitely ambiguous because the only times that is ever hinted is through parts that are definitely meant for fanservice. Although you kinda backed off on the matter, the idea you went to that field despite the definite lack of evidence (couldn't find a decent citation on it) indicates seeing things not objectively.

If you're going to go done that level of detail in regards to different kinds of crushes, then I can say we are definitely going beyond what I believe should be put on the relationship page and would be better discussed in the various shipper fandom pages (or actual romance theme story). It doesn't matter if it's not the "typical" "are they or not", the idea that we go this far and open to the idea of interpretation makes it no different. For a "in context" example, the "kiss with Illya and do better next time event" you see that as a clear sign of a crush, but I saw that differently as a sign of Miyu's dedication to Illya (willing to go that far for her). Another example is that FGO example you brought, where you saw that as a crush gesture, but I saw that as a friendship gesture (like how so attached Miyu became towards Illya and said Illya was her only friend and all she needed at the end of the first series/manga. However for all I know; you probably saw that as also Miyu crushing Illya). Thus, this why I agreed on EGG on how our judgements are not seen that objectively, or at least not at the level that is establshed. 

IF I still didn't understand you're POV despite my best intentions and trying to understand, then I'll apologize again for still not seeing it . 

Side note; one "are they or not" I do know (if you want to use it) is Senran Kagura (Homura and Asuka) cause again, I didn't watch Nanoha. 

WhalBP (talk) 06:49, December 28, 2019 (UTC)

"'it's definitely friendship"
"'it's definitely love"
"you don't see thing objective, I do"
"It just fanservice, that storywise means nothing".
"they said it"
"they don't"
etc. etc. etc.
Oh dude, why you are doing this to me. T_T
Why you persist on "are they or not" POV so hard and essentially pushing this into realms of typical shipping discussion. >_<
Excuse me, that I will not answer it in any way, since that would catch us just in dead-end of "wall of text explanations" of typical shipping quarrel. I have zero interest in explaining "deepness" and "complexity" said relationship, that shipping sides usually use to convince each other about their "truth" when they run out of arguments. So simply stop seeing me as "they are" side of your obvious "they not" side. Cool down, there is no enemy you have to convince that "Miyu and Illya are DEFINITELY friends", nothing. Ok? :D
Now take deep breath, and let's this from different angle. Since you still don't understand my POV even after good dose of explanation (yeah at this point was really wise to move discussion here >_<), is no point to doing it again. And let's assume, that there may be more of people like you, that will persist on typical "are they or not" POV. So what to do? I definitely refuse to cut or holding back things because of them or you. On the other hand I'm forced to accept, that there is probably no run from those people and the best thing will be find to good compromise before something explodes. >_<
To do so, we must get to core with as few words as possible.
So allow me now to question. What exactly makes you disagree with the blunt statements that:
"Miyu has an obvious crush on Illya"
"Miyu has a possible crush on Kuro as well".
Don't look on any POV or think, that this is some statement that you have to beat with "wall of text" arguments. Make your answer simple and short. If you do that, maybe we will get to somewhere. ^_^
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
Considering what I'm reading, I deeply apologize for still no understanding you're POV like I tried to (and fortold) and dragging this into the typical shipping wars. However, I feel now after looking at your blunt statements you don't seem to understand my POV either (as I already given answers from my previous statements and even references/citations). This is most worrisome and like you said, won't progress anywhere.
The best I got is what makes you think Miyu is crushing on Illya is confirmed and not just "possibly"? You said one time that "kiss event and Miyu saying will do better next time", but I already said that wasn't exactly an act of a crush but Miyu's dedication for Illya since she is Miyu's first friend after everything she's been through (The Fate Prisma Movie and Drei Ch. 29-39). You also said that isn't the typical "are they or not", because like such things is not hints but actions, and thus seek not answers but "reasons". The example "Miyu saying she'll do better next time", I'm assuming, is your "action" (considering how you think this is more "foward/direct") but I'm seeing that not being any different on it's ambiguity. In fact, maybe I'm not understanding your POV because I don't see it actually being any different from the usual "are they or not" .You say this isn't your "typical", but I'm probably seeing this as not any different (they are only spicing more it for the sake of fanservice). A more "simpler" way I can try to put it; while the approach is different, the results is still the same. 
As a result of all this, I feel since I couldn't understand you're POV despite how I tried, this makes me see how much one would need to go through to understand you (or how varied some can easily understand you) which leads to my original statement on why I originally felt that EGG is correct that our judgements is not so objective...and thus logical on the relationship section being pulled out.
WhalBP (talk) 15:55, December 28, 2019 (UTC)
Geez, geeeeeeeeez! Do I have really explaining everything into bulletproof details, because you are totally unable turn off your POV. >_<
Just turn off your mind and do what I say dammit! I call those statements "blunt" FOR REASON! THEY ARE NOT FULL REPRESENTATION OF MY POV! Take this as test or whatever. We need to get into core to reach some compromise, if you are unable understand my POV. Trust me that I understand your POV at fullest (or at least mostly). I was already many many many many times over this in other series. So I ask you again!
Answer those blunt statements SIMPLE AND SHORT. Two sentences for each at most. "Wall of text" "shipping defense" have really no sense here and I will not bother reading it anymore. I want conclusion! Not dead-end of shipping quarrel. Again SIMPLE AND SHORT. What EXACTLY makes you disagree with the BLUNT statements that:
"Miyu has an obvious crush on Illya"
"Miyu has a possible crush on Kuro as well"
Well?
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
A reason I said you don't get my POV is because of those blunt statements. They were already answered in my previous statements (earlier ones too). However, because you didn't seem to see that (or probably ignored them because of "text wall" reason), the best I can try is to say to your blunt statements in simpler terms is how I see both as still too ambiguous (more akin to fanservice). Can you now also still answer my question on the "action" (not "hint" as you said) that says the crush is confirmed and not just "possible"?WhalBP (talk) 19:19, December 29, 2019 (UTC)
I get your POV, I was already over this MANY MANY MANY .... (infinite) .... MANY TIMES! I judged already this "classic" way several other series. And seen prime example of this in Nanoha! (really suggest you look on it because of our issue), however, because Prisma partially parodies this matter of Nanoha (and some other Mahou Shoujo series), it really forces me to see it differently. And because of that I want apply different POV here. Unfortunately it seems that there still will be people like you, who can't/don't want/are unable to use different POV and still will judge series in classic "are they, or not?" way. So I accept that now, and will try find good compromise. And for that need your "indirect" help.
Regarding your question, I could answer it, however since you obviously still stubbornly sticking with "are they, or not?" POV, I don't think that it's good idea. Since you most likely would not get it and instead stuck everything back to "shipping quarrel", which we don't want. So we must reach results that satisfy both, without need for your understanding of my POV. Let me just again repeat, that my POV don't play on "are they, or not?" question and rather than "confirmation" written in "red letters" I judge their relations from "wider perspective". That must be enough for you.
Now, regarding "blunt statements" I again repeat, that they are not full representation of my POV, and that they are rather kind of test for you. Your answer gave me more less result, that makes me think, that you mostly ignore anything that you consider as "fanservice" as non-sufficient to be "proof" of anything. Which is more less part of classic way of "are they, or not?" thinking. So, let's do now, that you write your version of girls' relationships here in sandbox, with all references you can think of, and then I will counter it and adjust it with my POV with references or explanations that will be needed. Since it would be probably much faster and simpler to work with concrete points than overall description of POV. Once we get most satisfactory version, then will be posted on actual pages.
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
I have been trying to understand your POV, as I've been reading it many times (infinite like you said). You might think I'm being stubborn, but I really am trying to look at this at another angle (your angle). I've even been re-reading/watching the series and look at your notes to see it your way.  It's another reason why I don't think you see my POV (and how you insist that). In fact, the idea that you're willing to do a compromise for my sake makes me feel conflicted and believe we're not seeing it objectively. It's like we're doing something that is only trying to satisfying both our "feels/needs" and not seeing the story itself. Like you, I thought I was seeing this in a neutral mindset, and judged the "hints" as what I believe was correct from their usage and current evidence presented. But, If I'm really being stubborn like you said (not my intentions), then all the more reason why I feel it isn't right to add a relationship section (as I'm probably intentionally spilling my own personal feels on it when I'm not suppose to). At least, not the way I am now.
Also, maybe because I don't watch Nanoha (I could be wrong considering how you're seeing things that I apparently can't) and how you originally kept using it (and mentioning it earlier), I think you're being influence too much by it and it's affecting your judgement. 

Rereading everything makes me see it justified on why EGG dislikes relationships sections (both our relationships do kinda feel like outside analysis despite our best intentions). The only thing I can do now with confidence (for now) with no arguments is follow EGG's advice and just do the "X Happened, Y reacted" (and try to add citations) on the "easier" ones.  WhalBP (talk) 23:33, December 29, 2019 (UTC)

First do it here. I want try combine our POVs somehow, if possible. All while keeping EGG's advice.
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
So will you do some example?
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 1, 2020 (UTC)
I've been re-reading the manga (both original, 2wei, and Drei) and trying to reflect myself on making sure I'm not making some baseless assumptions. As of yet, I haven't finish my anaylization. Normally, I also look into anime, but for now I decide to follow EGG's advice on focusing on the more legitimate and original material instead whatever the anime added on that was originally not from the manga.  WhalBP (talk) 12:42, January 2, 2020 (UTC)
Anime specials are written by Hiroyama himself, so they have the same legitimacy as manga itself. Anyway, I think I just found perfect way how describe girls feelings while keeping both our POVs intact. Best way would be probably usage of phrase "suggesting crush". If used right way, in pure form without pointless "possibly/maybe/perhaps" adjectives and supported necessary references around, it would work pretty much acceptable for my POV, while keeping necessary ambiguity for your classic POV. What you think about it?
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 1, 2020 (UTC)
I don't see that much of a difference between suggestive or possibly/maybe/perhaps so what makes it ok with you? I'm still trying to understand your POV cause I feel I can't progress or judge this objectively otherwise. You haven't even told me the references/citations on why you originally said "crush being obvious" and not "suggestive or maybe" like I tried.WhalBP (talk) 15:49, January 7, 2020 (UTC)
"wording" key and important element of my POV. And there is trully huge difference between when something is "suggestive" and when something is "possible/maybe/perhaps". One is doubting and second indicating. And doubts are something that in my opinion has no place in description of relationship between Prismas. Prisma doesn't really make you doubt about girls relationships, but rather points you into several directions, while don't denying anything, so is up to you what direction you choose and what you will ignore, leaving you make own interpretation. Series like Nanoha on other hand leaves you still in doubts. Even when heroines already live as essential lesbian couple with own adopted child, you still doubt's about nature of their relationship and feelings and still ask titular "are they, or not?".
Prisma on other hand, leaves you no doubt, that there is "something" between girls, and doesn't even hesistate to make it physical several times. However instead of "definite answer" that usuall "are they, or not?" mindset desire, series starting making joke from issue and instead of "doubts" you are rather left with "question" of nature about their relationship.
One prime example:
https://imgur.com/a/PMdTBEB
Ice cream eating and sharing. In series like Nanoha you get pure joyfull moment, where at most shippers will fueling their fantasies about Nanoha ans Fate due fact, that they are swapping their ice-creams. In Prisma on other hand you get something that starts inocently, but atmosphere of lust and desire quickly overhelms and you ends just thinking about what exactly is Miyu thinking, when she ends sucking Illya's spoon dry. :D
Prisma is simply doing reverse side of what Nanoha is doing. Nanoha plays "purely" to make you possibly think "dirty". While Prisma plays "dirty" to make you possibly think "purely". Intepretation simply works from reverse side of coin.
I hope that this wall of text explanation will finally moves you somewhere. >_<
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 8, 2020 (UTC)
I understand what your saying but those images (like that flag) are fanservice for us because they know what they're delivering and what we "want". Like in the main story of something like Sailor Moon or Madan ou Vanadis, there would be no way that the main heroine would ever do something like be in a bunny suit except through merchandise or "service" artwork ( A minor thing: I've said something like suggestive crush when I first worked on that relationship info which is why it confused me why you're now saying it should "suggesting" when earlier you said "obvious crush" like it's a fact). 
Regardless, at the end of it, judging by what I see, it appears this is put under "interpretation" (doesn't matter which way) which is somehting EGG doesn't want despite how we both believe "see something". When you say "suggesting crush" can we say with confidence if that is "absolute fact" or simply us. I said earlier how I'm trying to add citations to prove my information (reason why I chose sisters and friends because sources like Drei chapter 40 and 41) and make it sound less like me and more from the source. Do we have any citations that can help anchor your idea (hopefully not be open for "interpretation or fanservice") ? WhalBP (talk) 22:36, January 18, 2020 (UTC)
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