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Otakuman007

  • I live in .... You don't want that know. Trust me.
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Revision as of 09:35, March 31, 2020 by WhalBP (Talk | contribs)

| User:Otakuman007

Welcome

Hi, welcome to TYPE-MOON Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the File:HisKoha.jpg page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! EGGS (talk) 00:16, June 19, 2015 (UTC)

Relationship Page

Because you're not doing it, I'll be taking the liberty of moving this topic here where I believe it should be taking place. I apologize for not understanding your POV, but this is what I got:

I'm not denying the "attraction" part Miyu and Illya has towards each other (crush as you call it; I actually do know what it means and get it's not the same as love but the way you were going at it, it made it feel you were going that way), but with other aspects being placed on it, I don't see it as simple as that. One reason invovles how that aspect is often used as a "comedy skit or fanservice" rather than the actual story. The other reason is because of the more "evidential and story driven understanding" of Miyu's feelings towards Illya is definitely friendship, I often see the "crush" Miyu has for Illya more as a sense of dedication towards her which is then often used for fanservices for people like us to enjoy and actually want to happen (like that flag picture you posted on the relationship). As a result, I'm don't think I'm seeing this as "are they or not?", but an actual understanding on how Miyu feels. There is also how you went as far saying Miyu having a crush on Kuro where that is definitely ambiguous because the only times that is ever hinted is through parts that are definitely meant for fanservice. Although you kinda backed off on the matter, the idea you went to that field despite the definite lack of evidence (couldn't find a decent citation on it) indicates seeing things not objectively.

If you're going to go done that level of detail in regards to different kinds of crushes, then I can say we are definitely going beyond what I believe should be put on the relationship page and would be better discussed in the various shipper fandom pages (or actual romance theme story). It doesn't matter if it's not the "typical" "are they or not", the idea that we go this far and open to the idea of interpretation makes it no different. For a "in context" example, the "kiss with Illya and do better next time event" you see that as a clear sign of a crush, but I saw that differently as a sign of Miyu's dedication to Illya (willing to go that far for her). Another example is that FGO example you brought, where you saw that as a crush gesture, but I saw that as a friendship gesture (like how so attached Miyu became towards Illya and said Illya was her only friend and all she needed at the end of the first series/manga. However for all I know; you probably saw that as also Miyu crushing Illya). Thus, this why I agreed on EGG on how our judgements are not seen that objectively, or at least not at the level that is establshed. 

IF I still didn't understand you're POV despite my best intentions and trying to understand, then I'll apologize again for still not seeing it . 

Side note; one "are they or not" I do know (if you want to use it) is Senran Kagura (Homura and Asuka) cause again, I didn't watch Nanoha. 

WhalBP (talk) 06:49, December 28, 2019 (UTC)

"'it's definitely friendship"
"'it's definitely love"
"you don't see thing objective, I do"
"It just fanservice, that storywise means nothing".
"they said it"
"they don't"
etc. etc. etc.
Oh dude, why you are doing this to me. T_T
Why you persist on "are they or not" POV so hard and essentially pushing this into realms of typical shipping discussion. >_<
Excuse me, that I will not answer it in any way, since that would catch us just in dead-end of "wall of text explanations" of typical shipping quarrel. I have zero interest in explaining "deepness" and "complexity" said relationship, that shipping sides usually use to convince each other about their "truth" when they run out of arguments. So simply stop seeing me as "they are" side of your obvious "they not" side. Cool down, there is no enemy you have to convince that "Miyu and Illya are DEFINITELY friends", nothing. Ok? :D
Now take deep breath, and let's this from different angle. Since you still don't understand my POV even after good dose of explanation (yeah at this point was really wise to move discussion here >_<), is no point to doing it again. And let's assume, that there may be more of people like you, that will persist on typical "are they or not" POV. So what to do? I definitely refuse to cut or holding back things because of them or you. On the other hand I'm forced to accept, that there is probably no run from those people and the best thing will be find to good compromise before something explodes. >_<
To do so, we must get to core with as few words as possible.
So allow me now to question. What exactly makes you disagree with the blunt statements that:
"Miyu has an obvious crush on Illya"
"Miyu has a possible crush on Kuro as well".
Don't look on any POV or think, that this is some statement that you have to beat with "wall of text" arguments. Make your answer simple and short. If you do that, maybe we will get to somewhere. ^_^
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
Considering what I'm reading, I deeply apologize for still no understanding you're POV like I tried to (and fortold) and dragging this into the typical shipping wars. However, I feel now after looking at your blunt statements you don't seem to understand my POV either (as I already given answers from my previous statements and even references/citations). This is most worrisome and like you said, won't progress anywhere.
The best I got is what makes you think Miyu is crushing on Illya is confirmed and not just "possibly"? You said one time that "kiss event and Miyu saying will do better next time", but I already said that wasn't exactly an act of a crush but Miyu's dedication for Illya since she is Miyu's first friend after everything she's been through (The Fate Prisma Movie and Drei Ch. 29-39). You also said that isn't the typical "are they or not", because like such things is not hints but actions, and thus seek not answers but "reasons". The example "Miyu saying she'll do better next time", I'm assuming, is your "action" (considering how you think this is more "foward/direct") but I'm seeing that not being any different on it's ambiguity. In fact, maybe I'm not understanding your POV because I don't see it actually being any different from the usual "are they or not" .You say this isn't your "typical", but I'm probably seeing this as not any different (they are only spicing more it for the sake of fanservice). A more "simpler" way I can try to put it; while the approach is different, the results is still the same. 
As a result of all this, I feel since I couldn't understand you're POV despite how I tried, this makes me see how much one would need to go through to understand you (or how varied some can easily understand you) which leads to my original statement on why I originally felt that EGG is correct that our judgements is not so objective...and thus logical on the relationship section being pulled out.
WhalBP (talk) 15:55, December 28, 2019 (UTC)
Geez, geeeeeeeeez! Do I have really explaining everything into bulletproof details, because you are totally unable turn off your POV. >_<
Just turn off your mind and do what I say dammit! I call those statements "blunt" FOR REASON! THEY ARE NOT FULL REPRESENTATION OF MY POV! Take this as test or whatever. We need to get into core to reach some compromise, if you are unable understand my POV. Trust me that I understand your POV at fullest (or at least mostly). I was already many many many many times over this in other series. So I ask you again!
Answer those blunt statements SIMPLE AND SHORT. Two sentences for each at most. "Wall of text" "shipping defense" have really no sense here and I will not bother reading it anymore. I want conclusion! Not dead-end of shipping quarrel. Again SIMPLE AND SHORT. What EXACTLY makes you disagree with the BLUNT statements that:
"Miyu has an obvious crush on Illya"
"Miyu has a possible crush on Kuro as well"
Well?
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
A reason I said you don't get my POV is because of those blunt statements. They were already answered in my previous statements (earlier ones too). However, because you didn't seem to see that (or probably ignored them because of "text wall" reason), the best I can try is to say to your blunt statements in simpler terms is how I see both as still too ambiguous (more akin to fanservice). Can you now also still answer my question on the "action" (not "hint" as you said) that says the crush is confirmed and not just "possible"?WhalBP (talk) 19:19, December 29, 2019 (UTC)
I get your POV, I was already over this MANY MANY MANY .... (infinite) .... MANY TIMES! I judged already this "classic" way several other series. And seen prime example of this in Nanoha! (really suggest you look on it because of our issue), however, because Prisma partially parodies this matter of Nanoha (and some other Mahou Shoujo series), it really forces me to see it differently. And because of that I want apply different POV here. Unfortunately it seems that there still will be people like you, who can't/don't want/are unable to use different POV and still will judge series in classic "are they, or not?" way. So I accept that now, and will try find good compromise. And for that need your "indirect" help.
Regarding your question, I could answer it, however since you obviously still stubbornly sticking with "are they, or not?" POV, I don't think that it's good idea. Since you most likely would not get it and instead stuck everything back to "shipping quarrel", which we don't want. So we must reach results that satisfy both, without need for your understanding of my POV. Let me just again repeat, that my POV don't play on "are they, or not?" question and rather than "confirmation" written in "red letters" I judge their relations from "wider perspective". That must be enough for you.
Now, regarding "blunt statements" I again repeat, that they are not full representation of my POV, and that they are rather kind of test for you. Your answer gave me more less result, that makes me think, that you mostly ignore anything that you consider as "fanservice" as non-sufficient to be "proof" of anything. Which is more less part of classic way of "are they, or not?" thinking. So, let's do now, that you write your version of girls' relationships here in sandbox, with all references you can think of, and then I will counter it and adjust it with my POV with references or explanations that will be needed. Since it would be probably much faster and simpler to work with concrete points than overall description of POV. Once we get most satisfactory version, then will be posted on actual pages.
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
I have been trying to understand your POV, as I've been reading it many times (infinite like you said). You might think I'm being stubborn, but I really am trying to look at this at another angle (your angle). I've even been re-reading/watching the series and look at your notes to see it your way.  It's another reason why I don't think you see my POV (and how you insist that). In fact, the idea that you're willing to do a compromise for my sake makes me feel conflicted and believe we're not seeing it objectively. It's like we're doing something that is only trying to satisfying both our "feels/needs" and not seeing the story itself. Like you, I thought I was seeing this in a neutral mindset, and judged the "hints" as what I believe was correct from their usage and current evidence presented. But, If I'm really being stubborn like you said (not my intentions), then all the more reason why I feel it isn't right to add a relationship section (as I'm probably intentionally spilling my own personal feels on it when I'm not suppose to). At least, not the way I am now.
Also, maybe because I don't watch Nanoha (I could be wrong considering how you're seeing things that I apparently can't) and how you originally kept using it (and mentioning it earlier), I think you're being influence too much by it and it's affecting your judgement. 

Rereading everything makes me see it justified on why EGG dislikes relationships sections (both our relationships do kinda feel like outside analysis despite our best intentions). The only thing I can do now with confidence (for now) with no arguments is follow EGG's advice and just do the "X Happened, Y reacted" (and try to add citations) on the "easier" ones.  WhalBP (talk) 23:33, December 29, 2019 (UTC)

First do it here. I want try combine our POVs somehow, if possible. All while keeping EGG's advice.
--Otakuman007 (talk) December 28, 2019 (UTC)
So will you do some example?
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 1, 2020 (UTC)
I've been re-reading the manga (both original, 2wei, and Drei) and trying to reflect myself on making sure I'm not making some baseless assumptions. As of yet, I haven't finish my anaylization. Normally, I also look into anime, but for now I decide to follow EGG's advice on focusing on the more legitimate and original material instead whatever the anime added on that was originally not from the manga.  WhalBP (talk) 12:42, January 2, 2020 (UTC)
Anime specials are written by Hiroyama himself, so they have the same legitimacy as manga itself. Anyway, I think I just found perfect way how describe girls feelings while keeping both our POVs intact. Best way would be probably usage of phrase "suggesting crush". If used right way, in pure form without pointless "possibly/maybe/perhaps" adjectives and supported necessary references around, it would work pretty much acceptable for my POV, while keeping necessary ambiguity for your classic POV. What you think about it?
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 1, 2020 (UTC)
I don't see that much of a difference between suggestive or possibly/maybe/perhaps so what makes it ok with you? I'm still trying to understand your POV cause I feel I can't progress or judge this objectively otherwise. You haven't even told me the references/citations on why you originally said "crush being obvious" and not "suggestive or maybe" like I tried.WhalBP (talk) 15:49, January 7, 2020 (UTC)
"wording" key and important element of my POV. And there is trully huge difference between when something is "suggestive" and when something is "possible/maybe/perhaps". One is doubting and second indicating. And doubts are something that in my opinion has no place in description of relationship between Prismas. Prisma doesn't really make you doubt about girls relationships, but rather points you into several directions, while don't denying anything, so is up to you what direction you choose and what you will ignore, leaving you make own interpretation. Series like Nanoha on other hand leaves you still in doubts. Even when heroines already live as essential lesbian couple with own adopted child, you still doubt's about nature of their relationship and feelings and still ask titular "are they, or not?".
Prisma on other hand, leaves you no doubt, that there is "something" between girls, and doesn't even hesistate to make it physical several times. However instead of "definite answer" that usuall "are they, or not?" mindset desire, series starting making joke from issue and instead of "doubts" you are rather left with "question" of nature about their relationship.
One prime example:
https://imgur.com/a/PMdTBEB
Ice cream eating and sharing. In series like Nanoha you get pure joyfull moment, where at most shippers will fueling their fantasies about Nanoha ans Fate due fact, that they are swapping their ice-creams. In Prisma on other hand you get something that starts inocently, but atmosphere of lust and desire quickly overhelms and you ends just thinking about what exactly is Miyu thinking, when she ends sucking Illya's spoon dry. :D
Prisma is simply doing reverse side of what Nanoha is doing. Nanoha plays "purely" to make you possibly think "dirty". While Prisma plays "dirty" to make you possibly think "purely". Intepretation simply works from reverse side of coin.
I hope that this wall of text explanation will finally moves you somewhere. >_<
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 8, 2020 (UTC)
I understand what your saying looking at those images but those images (like that flag) are fanservice for us because they know what they're delivering and what we "want". Like in the main story of something like Sailor Moon or Madan ou Vanadis, there would be no way that the main heroine would ever do something like be in a bunny suit except through merchandise or "service" artwork. Another example is Senran Kagura where although the game downright claims Asuka and Homura are "eternal rivals", fanservice, "ambiguous conversations" and merchandise delivers them as couples like this: https://i.redd.it/o8tt1ke6ld711.jpg cause the creators know that's what we like. There is also this thing: I've said something like suggestive crush when I first worked on that relationship info which is why it confused me why you're now saying it should be "suggesting" when earlier you said "obvious crush" like it's a fact.
Regardless, at the end of it, judging by what I see, it appears this is put under "interpretation" (doesn't matter which way) which is somehting EGG doesn't want despite how we both believe we "see something". When you say "suggesting crush" can we say with confidence if that is "absolute fact" or simply us. I said earlier how I'm trying to add citations to prove my information (reason why I chose sisters and friends because sources like Drei chapter 40 and 41) and make it sound less like me and more from the source. Do we have any citations that can help anchor your idea (hopefully citation/source is not so open for "interpretation or fanservice")?WhalBP (talk) 02:50, January 21, 2020 (UTC)
Apparently you don't understand if you don't see a difference in approach that Prisma has. Yes, in things like Nanoha or as you said Senran Kagura and etc. Fanservice is playing with us to see what actually isn't there or what creators want us to believe. But in Prisma things are a little different. It's NOT "are they, or not?" (damn, how many times I will have to repeat that). It's "yep they are, however in what exact way".
To put it into detail, in Prisma you would actually get girls to seriously wear a bunny suit in story. Or in our cases catsuits. It's completely in-character for it to happen. Thing is rather what is the motivation behind it for it to happen. For absolute fanservice like that, there is also character like Ruby, that is capable of doing it and mischievous troll personality to force or convince characters to dress up like that. And yet you can't dismiss those scenes as "mere fanservice", because you can't dismiss Ruby as "mere fanservice". She is a proper character that is actually able act like this and can't be ignored as something "nonserious" that exist just for "sake of fanservice". Same goes for characters doing perverted things on their own. Each of them has it somewhere inside. As represented for example with Illya's "switch". "Fanservice" in Prisma is natural part of series and thus is needed to be taken seriously, just as when characters are in dramatic situations.
Now, regarding issue of Miyu's crush. I simply starting backing off to be more ambiguous, because I starting getting feeling, that you would not see it even if you gave all references I have, and I start being a little tired of your constant persistent on "are they, or not?" POV. And thinking that there may be possibly more people like that in the future, makes me think, that the right choice of words do more magic, than repeating this discussion from beginning with another person. Regarding your chapter 40 and 41 references, I just say, that what is presented here is just Illya's POV and for that, I always said, that she has the "most normal" approach regarding their relationships, out of three. Illya starting to see Miyu as a sister, yet even in this scene you can see that her "switch" is getting triggered, hard to say, what she would do, if actually "snapped". Which is kind of point her character in this regard. Miyu, on the other hand, is a little different. While you see her here describing their relationship as a friendship, you must ask: "What exactly is Friendship with Illya for Miyu?" "What does that include and how far it would go?", you can't say that they would do simple "friend stuff and nothing else" as in other series, because we have already seen Miyu willing to go even further for Illya. So it's definitely not "normal friendship" from her side. While we could quarrel, whether its anything romantic or platonic or anything else, we can't deny that there is SOMETHING from her side. I ask you now. Why do you think, that Miyu is blushing when she is saying that she and Illya are friends?
--Otakuman007 (talk) January 26, 2020 (UTC)
The "simplest" way I can say, is that pretty much no different to being embarassed and how the author is aware of our "taste" and is feeding it to make us see it in another way for fanservice and skit reasons (Like I've been saying earlier) but you're earlier comment would go against it. Ruby and Illya's switch are fanservice as that's part of the series charm, but you're missing the point when I said author uses fanservice to feed our desires and assumptions. It's like this: You see the Kuro kiss Illya example. Becaue of how they depict the scene, you don't simply think it's not only for Kuro's survival and it has you believe they have feelings for each other. You would then ACTUALLY say they do have feelings for each other instead of being a mere "hint or suggestion". That is the fanservice objective, while it will give a "logical reason" behind the action and shows other things that would suggest otherwise, the fanservice happens for our sake to enjoy for our imagination on what we believe and/or want. IF they took away that fanservice, we would only think it's JUST for Kuro's survival and nothing else. It's probably why you think Miyu also has a crush on Kuro.  
Again how I see it, the "yep they are, however in what exact way" thing is still no different from the "are they or they not" because it's no true definitive answer that is open for interpration. Also, can't you at least TRY on the reference? You said it wouldn't matter to either way, but I'm seeing that as no different as "I have no reference and just going with my feelings". On the "What exactly is Friendship with Illya for Miyu?", this related to the "there is something" issue and Miyu's own upbringing (another, but more extreme, case is like Erika/Pandora). That fact that we can only say it's "something" and not downright a "Crush or romantic interest" is why I originally went for something like "suggested crush" in the first placed when I first added my info on relationship page unlike how you originally said it's a obvious crush like some fact (which I mentioned before confusese me and makes me think we're just doing this based on our assumptions and not the series). It doesn't help when you said this quote "I simply starting backing off to be more ambiguous, because I starting getting feeling, that you would not see it even if you gave all references I have, and I start being a little tired of your constant persistent on 'are they, or not?' POV." when I keep saying I get it as it implies you're kinda forcing how you feel and what you see on the subject (I'm now looking at it like this: while we both get each other's POV, we just don't see it that way and are just forcing the other to change their mind. Like although we both taste spicy, one hates it while the other likes it and we are trying to force each to think otherwise). This what leads me to take EGG advice to do references until the manga comes clean and says it's a downright crush instead of just throwing hints and roundabout things that would make people like us argue about it.
Considering how we still are not understanding each other (or that I'm the problem if that is better for you). I personally believe we should take EGG's advice, the relationship page should be kept off. It isn't like all the FATE pages have one or it's required. OR the other idea EGG kinda said: we keep the relationship small, and very factual like some of the other relationship pages and leave the rest to everyone else. We simply state events that has happened or just do quotes and NOT say it means "suggesting crush or it is a crush". We leave everyone to decide for themselves when they read it.  
Examples: The FGO quote you originally put in Miyu's relationship. We can just put the quote and that's it. We will not saying anything afterwards (like go on to say it means a crush or simply friendship) and just have people who reads it to decide. Another case (won't use these exact words), we mentioned the events that happened between Miyu and Illya: "Miyu meets Illya.....blah blah....she says she'll collect the cards.....blah blah...Miyu now calls her by her nickname.....etc." We don't say anything if that means a crush or friendship (that will be up to the readers).
A "out of subject" example: We show a food dish and explain what it taste like (spicy, sweet, sour, etc.), and leave it to everyone else if they like it or dislike it (not say how I think it taste terrible while you say it taste great). 
WhalBP (talk) 23:50, February 3, 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry regarding how you stubbornly keep "are they are not" POV on everything. But your application of it on Prisma makes me just more sure how unfit and off regarding Prisma series is.
I could give you a lot of references right from manga, but if you will keep this POV, I strongly doubt, that you will actually be listening. Just as you calmly ignored my previous question and straight went into "are they are not" madness again.
And also I refuse to give up, just due to typical alibism of "are they are not" POV.
References are present, you just must not ignore them as people like you often do. I know it. I used this POV in different series many many MANY times
So for now, I try once more to push you into the right direction. Once again. COMPLETELY LEAVE "ARE THEY ARE NOT" POV OUT OF YOUR MIND! Stop thinking doubting about anything that's not loudly spoken in the story and actually pay attention to EVERYTHING that is actually happening in the story. Maybe you realize a few things yourself. Of course prejudice and bias aside.
Now first. What is fanservice in Prisma? In Prisma fanservice is just not that lewd/funny scene is happening. It's the REASON WHY such a scene is happening. Prisma itself in the core is lewd/funny story. So base fanservice is a natural part of it. You can't deny and ignore it as something unrelated. Yeah, you can focus on the dramatic part of the story, but you can't deny fanservice part of it as core as well. Prisma is just as dramatic Fate story as funny/lewd magical girl comedy. All in all is related.
You just questioning context. Not doubting whether a scene was meant seriously.
Now some practical examples. Let's start with those you mentioned.
First Ruby, she truly is not some simple comedic relief, that can be ignored for her silly doing. She actually is a powerful Mystic Code with a mischievous personality. When anime trying to make her dots looking as the eyes of Kyuubey from Madoka, it's not just mere parody. Ruby actually is a kind of similar existence that is funny outside and little sinister inside. Just as her counterpart on which her personality is based on. Magical Amber aka Kohaku. When she is saying, that she is "connecting to wishes of viewers" in OVA while forcing Illya to wear beast mode suit. She actually does it. :D Yeah said OVA maybe exist for sake of fanservice, but it doesn't decrease the seriousness of Illya's "suffering" here. Which is also pretty much supported by why is Illya always so careful on Ruby's ideas. Ruby is capable of such things. After all, she can operate with alternate worlds.
Next Illya's switch. Yes, it's visualization may be kind of joke, but Illya's "snaps" are not. Illya is obviously kind of covert pervert with strong fetishes on various things. Especially maid outfits. You can hardly ignore it since she is doing too often, for it not being part of her character. And since it influences people around her (especially her certain friend), you also can't say that it doesn't play role in the story.
Now Kuro kissing Illya scene. With this, we are getting a little complex here. Once again you must watch what is happening during this scene and pay attention to things and details around it. Thing is that regardless of girls' motivation fact is that Kuro's and Ilya's relationship IS physical. That itself can't be denied, and we are just looking for details around it. That's kind one of the things that you must do reverse way in comparison to typical "are they are not" POV. They ARE kissing. Yeah, THEY ARE doing it, BUT WHY? The first thing that comes to mind. Kuro needs mana. Of course, Kuro needs to survive. But does she really doing it just for survival? Knowing Kuro's personality, you pretty much know that she actually enjoys it and looking for it. Does that makes her lesbian? Ok, here we have the first question that can be discussed. But everything before is a pretty obvious truth that can't be ignored and thus can be written. Like this then we can continue. (By the way, if you got just feeling that I stated that Kuro is lesbian, I did not, just your "are they are not" POV is ticking again, so wake up)
Why Illya is kissing Kuro if she is not currently just "kissraped" by her? Does she like her? Well, she does, otherwise, she won't do it. But what way she like her? It's love? Depends, there are many kinds of love. Illya and Kuro so far established pretty much sibling-like relationship, so kind of "siblings love" is indisputable. But how deep it goes? That's where our obvious proofs end so far. But two more hints are still present. Despite the physical part of a relationship being just "forced by circumstances" the one still can't unnotice moments where girls "indulge" in their to their physical contact, or moments like scene when Illya actually thinking about what she would do if she had to lose Kuro, while kissing her (chapter 17 of 2wei). That pretty much proves, that there is some deepness in her feeling too. We just don't know how much. Of course, until actual confession happens we can only discuss how much deep their relationship is. But for now is safe to say, that particular relationship between Illya and Kuro is an intimate siblings-like relationship of unknown deepness.
Now you have seen how in base my POV works. I don't know if you finally understood this or not, but definitely don't want to see another "are they are not" ignorative madness. So let's do this.
If you do finally understand things, great, let's finally move to some other things and create a proper relationship description.
If you still don't understand a thing and see just "nonsenses" that doesn't fit into your POV, then simply completely forget EVERYTHING I wrote in this whole article and JUST answer if you agree or disagree with a BOLD WRITTEN DESCRIPTION of a relationship between Illya and Kuro. Eventually, how differently you would describe their relationship. That's all that matters. Don't even think of another wall of text about "are they are not" POV. I know how it works and its quarrel will not lead us to result. Only direct confrontation of results of our POVs and their combination supported by all necessary references will lead to somewhere in this case.
So once again, do you finally understand things?
  • Yes? Great, let's move to another part, and for example how You would describe the relationship between Illya and Miyu by using this POV?
  • No, it's just nonsense not fitting into your POV? Ok again forget everything and just say, if you agree that the relationship between Illya and Kuro is an intimate siblings-like relationship of unknown deepness, and if not, how you would describe it. Keep in short, and bring your references, into play. I will do same after that, and like this we hopefully reach some satisfying conclusion for both. Long discussions at this point will lead to nothing and only keep us in circles.
--Otakuman007 (talk) February 06, 2020 (UTC)
For the Kuro/Illya: I can only try to say ( as you'll probably only see it as not that way and you'll see it as "my stubborn POV) is they originally were enemies, but they now they got back past their issues, and are now friends who will put their lives (in many ways) on the line for each other. With your mindset, you'll probably say that isn't the case.
If everything I say is nothing but some "are they are they not" to you, I'm now (and kinda have been) only seeing whatever you're saying as "they are no matter what" (like some absolute doctrine). You keep insisting something is there, and assume YOU KNOW what it is because of material from other series. As for Ruby, I don't understand why you think I think Ruby is JUST some comic relief. She is one of the most important characters in the series and the things she does is noteworthy to watch. Some of her antics are for laughs, but that doesn't mean one should disregard her entirely. What I was trying to say (without you thinking/assuming something else) in the simplest way possible: her antics she feeds on what we all really want out of this series. That OVA being a "minor example". As for the OVA: you say it maybe fanservice, but IT IS Fanservice and then you give this talk of it having some other meaning like some book club talk. As for the Kuroe kissing part (chapter 2wei 17), I can only try to say is I understand that level of indulgence is not normal despite the requirements stating such level of intimacy is needed for "more mana intake" (other Fate series pointed that as well).  Illya pointed it out herself on the "strange atmosphere/mood" of the situation. However, that's the thing: I see that as part of the fanservice to feed our desire that "there's something" with the way they depicted that scene so powerfully (but doesn't mean it should be written off as an excuse). This leads to other thing (kinda why i see you not understanding my POV).
I never said the fanservice is unrelated. I don't even know where that came from. This wouldn't be Prisma without it. The fanservice is there not only to identify Prisma Illya from other Fate series, but also for the sake of people who like that fanservice (it's sadly among the reasons some don't like series despite its great story).
The story is aware of that and is feeding it, hence why most like or want the idea of Miyu & Illya being more then just "friendship or sisters" like how the story sometimes "tries to write it off as" (a bit contradictory but that is kinda the point the way I see it) (You'll probably only see this part as my "refuse to change" POV). This lead to you to me always thinking it's "are they or they not". I would see it like this: We know the criminal is guilty, but we can't turn in the criminal without clear evidence, no "roundabouts". I feel that without an evidence that leaves no excuses (best ex: like saying "I love you" with no friendship implications as some excuse) we can't come clean on it. With you, you're just going out with it using evidence that I feel that "isn't enough" because of there being room for doubt. The fanservice is an example of "not enough". With EGG wanting references, I feel security is even tighter now. 
Now can you just give a straight reference (no deep explaination or compare to some other series; page number, quote, and scene). Don't care if I don't understand. You keep ignoring that request and just throwing what you want. The fact your not giving me any makes me think all your talks are excuses and you actually have none.WhalBP (talk) 11:31, February 24, 2020 (UTC)


Just as you keep ignoring my request, keeping discussion straight. This starting to be more tiring with every post. I asked for simple answer of one or other way, that will allow us to finally move forward. Yet again, I just got another Wall of Text, that tries to keep us in circles. At this point, I essencially have no other choice than start using quotes keep some track in discussion. T_T

For the Kuro/Illya: I can only try to say is they originally were enemies, but they now they got back past their issues, and are now friends who will put their lives (in many ways) on the line for each other.

Actually, I CAN agree with this part. Just it's not full story. But shortened "censored" version . Made to fit your part of "are they are they not" POV. I get to this below.

You keep insisting something is there, and assume YOU KNOW what it is because of material from other series.

No, I only pointing on what actually IS within THIS series. Only what I was talking about other series, was that approach of Prisma is different enough in comparsion to them, that different POV is needed. In short, Prisma may be inspired by Nanoha, but obviously isn't same. So people shouldn't look on it same way.

As for Ruby, I don't understand why you think I think Ruby is JUST some comic relief. She is one of the most important characters in the series and the things she does is noteworthy to watch. Some of her antics are for laughs, but that doesn't mean one should disregard her entirely. What I was trying to say (without you thinking/assuming something else) in the simplest way possible: her antics she feeds on what we all really want out of this series. That OVA being a "minor example". As for the OVA: you say it maybe fanservice, but IT IS Fanservice and then you give this talk of it having some other meaning like some book club talk.

So in other words, you are able acknowledge Ruby as character, but not her actions as relevant events. I hope, that you realise how absurdly contradictory this approach is. You acknowledging that reality warper is right in front of you, yet still refuse to believe that it actually want warp reality. *facepalm*

As for the Kuroe kissing part (chapter 2wei 17), I can only try to say is I understand that level of indulgence is not normal despite the requirements stating such level of intimacy is needed for "more mana intake" (other Fate series pointed that as well). Illya pointed it out herself on the "strange atmosphere/mood" of the situation. However, that's the thing: I see that as part of the fanservice to feed our desire that "there's something" with the way they depicted that scene so powerfully (but doesn't mean it should be written off as an excuse). This leads to other thing (kinda why i see you not understanding my POV).

And again. I UNDERSTAND your POV. I have seen same approach so many many many (add infinite) times, that I can already even tell exactly what side of "are they, are not" POV you are. You are absolute "THEY ARE NOT!" side. Side that persist on "friendship" and refuse to believe that there can be something more between characters, no matter what hints or clues series itself present. It's always "just fanservise", or "misunderstanding" or "bad interpretation" and I don't know what other nonsense. Some hardcore denials would able even ignore if characters actually kissed each other and confessed and still persist on MUH FRIENDSHIP! (I really hope that you are not such case >_<)

I never said the fanservice is unrelated. I don't even know where that came from. This wouldn't be Prisma without it. The fanservice is there not only to identify Prisma Illya from other Fate series, but also for the sake of people who like that fanservice (it's sadly among the reasons some don't like series despite its great story).

It pretty much came from your "THEY ARE NOT!" approach. Dismissing one or other scene as irrelevant because of fanservice, that "gives us what we want to see". I again say Prisma as WHOLE is fanservice! Which means, that there is no typical line between what is wishgranting fanservise and what is "relevant plot". Prisma itself is one huge wishgrant. So you can't judge some of it's content differently than other. This itself pretty much led me to change whole POV on content of series. To judge it more unanimously. For example: lewd Kiss scene happens. Instead of struggling between how big or irrelevant wishgrant scene is. I instead opting calling things their true name (girls are kissing after all so no doubt about physicality in their relationship) and rather focus on motivation behind this action, since that's where real strugle lies (it just simple mana transfer deal, or there are some feelings etc.). Going into details, no matter how ridicilous scene may seem. That's key.

The story is aware of that and is feeding it, hence why most like or want the idea of Miyu & Illya being more then just "friendship or sisters" like how the story sometimes "tries to write it off as" (a bit contradictory but that is kinda the point the way I see it) (You'll probably only see this part as my "refuse to change" POV).

Yep, pretty much. You essencially demands me to be "THEY ARE!" side to your ""THEY ARE NOT!" side, so you can convice me that I'm wrong. Typical mindset of "are they or they not" POV. I again say stop with this nonsense. And let's rather talk about girls motivations behind some kiss scene, rather than questioning relevance of scene itself.

I would see it like this: We know the criminal is guilty, but we can't turn in the criminal without clear evidence, no "roundabouts".

You never can get clear evidence, if you will ignore details. Small details, make great details, and great details make clear evidence.
Dumb example (so don't take it as literal aplication on some scene): Kiss scene happens and girls are visibly enjoy it. You can hardly pass it as simple "friendly kiss" for manatransfer. More rather "friends with benefits". :D And more details taken into account can make result even more interesting, or other hand make situation more transparent.

 

I feel that without an evidence that leaves no excuses (best ex: like saying "I love you" with no friendship implications as some excuse) we can't come clean on it. With you, you're just going out with it using evidence that I feel that "isn't enough" because of there being room for doubt. The fanservice is an example of "not enough".

Again, WHOLE series if FANSERVICE! What makes you judge that one scene is more relevant than other? I ONCE AGAIN say take a single meter on WHOLE series and see what results you can get. After that most transparent happenings can be written.

With EGG wanting references, I feel security is even tighter now.

We will do that. Of course, if you allows us to move from those POV questioning cyrcles.

 

Now can you just give a straight reference (no deep explaination or compare to some other series; page number, quote, and scene). Don't care if I don't understand. You keep ignoring that request and just throwing what you want. The fact your not giving me any makes me think all your talks are excuses and you actually have none.

Just as I said on begining, Iťs YOU, who keep ingoring my request to keep this discusion straight. Your persistment on "are they are not" POV, is reason why I still don't gave you anything. Because, I simply fear that all my effort will go waste, as you simply end ignoring first half of stuff and dismising other as usual ""THEY ARE NOT!" side person would do. So better going with you being the one who starts.
As I said previously, if we finally are on some level of mutural undestanding then start with your "in detail" desription of relationship between Illya and Miyu, I will then add my piece. Your first paragraph in this answer was good start. Continue.
--Otakuman007 (talk) February 25, 2020 (UTC)


Still waiting for your relationship desriptions. --Otakuman007 (talk) March 19, 2020 (UTC)

"So in other words, you are able acknowledge Ruby as character, but not her actions as relevant events. I hope, that you realise how absurdly contradictory this approach is. You acknowledging that reality warper is right in front of you, yet still refuse to believe that it actually want warp reality. *facepalm*"

Your description on Ruby doesn't make sense to me at all. Again, I've always acknoledged her importance, her actions are REVELENT. THAT IS THE BEST WAY I can say without some "misunderstanding" or whatever it is your saying or thinking or interpreting. 

"You never can get clear evidence, if you will ignore details. Small details, make great details, and great details make clear evidence.

Dumb example (so don't take it as literal aplication on some scene): Kiss scene happens and girls are visibly enjoy it. You can hardly pass it as simple "friendly kiss" for manatransfer. More rather "friends with benefits". :D And more details taken into account can make result even more interesting, or other hand make situation more transparent."

Clear Evidence appears to be is very revelent in this fandom's case otherwise I wouldn't have gone so far as doing references to avoid information I try to add removed. Little evidence and details (in this case particular) will only lead to subjective suggestions and/or arguments like we're doing. 

"And again. I UNDERSTAND your POV. I have seen same approach so many many many (add infinite) times, that I can already even tell exactly what side of "are they, are not" POV you are. You are absolute "THEY ARE NOT!" side. Side that persist on "friendship" and refuse to believe that there can be something more between characters, no matter what hints or clues series itself present. It's always "just fanservise", or "misunderstanding" or "bad interpretation" and I don't know what other nonsense. Some hardcore denials would able even ignore if characters actually kissed each other and confessed and still persist on MUH FRIENDSHIP! (I really hope that you are not such case >_<)"

"Yep, pretty much. You essencially demands me to be "THEY ARE!" side to your ""THEY ARE NOT!" side, so you can convice me that I'm wrong. Typical mindset of "are they or they not" POV. I again say stop with this nonsense. And let's rather talk about girls motivations behind some kiss scene, rather than questioning relevance of scene itself."

I've never wanted or intended some "THEY ARE NOT". I figured that is the "Story's intentions", not mine . But it appears your think I see it that way (you probably would think that is another of my "POV"). When I see the story is trying "hide" (amusingly) their thing with "Friendship", it makes me feel I shouldn't go and say Miyu does have a crush on Illya. Otherwise, I feel THAT to be truly subjective until the story downright says it themselves. Since they are "trying" be vague, I figured I should play to their tune (be also as vague) as a result. Like when the anime and manga says they are only "Friends", I decided to go with that (example is their battle with Beserker Card where they downight say it). Because they are doing the more "romantic parts" as only hints with "masks" that are subjective to personal opinions, I figured that I'm only allowed to say "implied crush" instead of "actual crush" until they downright say it like how they do events that downright say "we are friends". 

"No, I only pointing on what actually IS within THIS series. Only what I was talking about other series, was that approach of Prisma is different enough in comparsion to them, that different POV is needed. In short, Prisma may be inspired by Nanoha, but obviously isn't same. So people shouldn't look on it same way."

See? This is what I'm talking about, you say IS like you know, and where does that come from? Your view from Nanoha ( material from other series).

"It pretty much came from your "THEY ARE NOT!" approach. Dismissing one or other scene as irrelevant because of fanservice, that "gives us what we want to see". I again say Prisma as WHOLE is fanservice! Which means, that there is no typical line between what is wishgranting fanservise and what is "relevant plot". Prisma itself is one huge wishgrant. So you can't judge some of it's content differently than other. This itself pretty much led me to change whole POV on content of series. To judge it more unanimously. For example: lewd Kiss scene happens. Instead of struggling between how big or irrelevant wishgrant scene is. I instead opting calling things their true name (girls are kissing after all so no doubt about physicality in their relationship) and rather focus on motivation behind this action, since that's where real strugle lies (it just simple mana transfer deal, or there are some feelings etc.). Going into details, no matter how ridicilous scene may seem. That's key."

Your interpetation is like saying the whole Rescue Miyu Arc is equivalent to Mimi in the BL story. I won't deny their both imporant, but I'm sure there is a "line" on the idea on what parts to "laugh and enjoy (feelgood)" and what parts to take "seriously". 

"Just as I said on begining, Iťs YOU, who keep ingoring my request to keep this discusion straight. Your persistment on "are they are not" POV, is reason why I still don't gave you anything. Because, I simply fear that all my effort will go waste, as you simply end ignoring first half of stuff and dismising other as usual ""THEY ARE NOT!" side person would do. So better going with you being the one who starts. As I said previously, if we finally are on some level of mutural undestanding then start with your "in detail" desription of relationship between Illya and Miyu, I will then add my piece. Your first paragraph in this answer was good start. Continue."

I'll gladly do the relationship until I get those references. That way I would have better material to work with so I can try to incorporate what you want with actual evidence that no one will complain or try to think subjectively about. WhalBP (talk) 09:35, March 31, 2020 (UTC)


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