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WelcomeEdit

Hi, welcome to TYPE-MOON Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! EGGS (talk) 10:32, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

NrvnqsrEdit

Nero's Reality Marble is definitely something he did on his own. He's older than Roa by hundreds of years. There's a later flashback scene where Roa talks about having something to teach him, which is referencing the Soil of Genesis. The only thing I'm not sure of is classifying SoG as a RM, but he talks about it in response to her inquiry about "what's this RM?" It might be clearer in Japanese. EGGS (talk) 18:30, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

The Soil of Genesis was developed jointly by Roa and Nrvnqsr (Melty Blood, Roa's victory speech). Nero's older than Roa but he was already a Dead Apostle by the time he met Roa, and he learned the Lair from him afterwards...is what I would think. I don't think the Soil of Genesis is a separate RM because the Lair of the Beast King already is Nero's RM and it won't make much sense to make another RM out of a RM. Like you said, it's a response to "What's this RM?" right after the talk about the Soil of Genesis so it's kind of ambiguous. Blegh. Zodiac21 (talk) 19:35, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
The core of Nero's existence is LotBK, as in he cannot be Nero without it. It's what makes him a DA and caused him to cease being the singular being named Fabro. From then on, he's looked for means of controlling the RM, which Roa helped him with over time. I can't see any mention of it being a RM anywhere else, so it's probably a weird translation or just an unrelated tangent. I'll probably get rid of that line then. EGGS (talk) 20:34, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Third Shiki Edit

Having read and reread the cited answers over and over...I still stand behind the fact that Nasu never refers to Shiki's third personality with a single way of phrasing consistently. Both "Shiki Ryougi" and 「Shiki Ryougi」 are both used once (and both use the spelling of the female personality, in case you are curious). The novels don't do anything to distinguish the name, from what I can tell (and if so, whoever transcribed it for the cite on the page did so incorrectly). What I am getting from this is that the the third Shiki Ryougi doesn't have an official name (though, as an embodiment of the Swirl of the Root, I argue that 「 」 still technically counts) and Nasu basically "boxes" the female Shiki's name to distinguish that its the third one he's talking about. I still don't know why you didn't take just referring to her as "the third personality" as a compromise, but if we do use one of the "boxed Shiki" names to refer to her, I'd go for "Shiki Ryougi" if only because it doesn't require users to copy/paste every time they need to refer to her by name.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:46, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

It's a fairly important plot point that 「Ryougi Shiki」 is referred to as such; she calls herself that to distinguish herself from the other Shikis because she isn't the same person as the other two -- Shiki and SHIKI were made by 「両儀式」, and she introduces herself by that name.
As for KnK having it written as 「両儀式」....well, you'll just have to take my word for it.
Here's the Japanese wiki for reference (not that there are any.
Well, unless you just want to make sure it's 『両儀式』): http://typemoon.wiki.cre.jp/wiki/%E4%B8%A1%E5%84%80%E5%BC%8F
Melty Blood: 
Quote from final round, blah blah, first time 「I'm」 the one begging me to do something 
F/GO: 両儀式が「式」という名の少女なら、この人物は「両儀式」という名の女性。
Blah, blah, Shiki is named Shiki and 「Ryougi Shiki」 is a woman with the name 「Ryougi Shiki」
In case you were wondering, from F/GO onwards, it's all completely written as 「両儀式」, other than the name under the card.
Most people will refer to her as Void Shiki anyway. The official name should be left as 「Ryougi Shiki」 for information; whether "Ryougi Shiki" is used instead in other articles for ease of typing or in the rest of the article has nothing to do with me. Zodiac21 (talk) 05:59, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
I see your point on the name being 「両儀式」 consistently, thank you. Leaving it 「Shiki Ryougi」 is fine.
Though, as an aside, I do have to question it being written that way being a plot point, since it seems to be totally for the reader's convenience (as I am not sure that 「両儀式」 would be pronounced any differently from 両儀式). If I recall the epilogue, Third!Shiki refers to herself as Ryougi Shiki (specifically 「両儀式」 presumably), then Mikiya asks for elaboration (specifically, he says "...Shiki?"; because it's the same name as the Shiki he knows) and she goes on to talk about on her nature and the origins of the other two. Seeing as she is the embodiment of the Origin of 「 」, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't originally have a name, but took the female Shiki's name for convenience (the F/GO profile seems to confirm this, as it says she is "a woman with the name Shiki Ryougi" and not "she is Shiki Ryougi".) But I am just rambling now, sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 13:54, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

BeastEdit

The following are legitimate terminology used in the Japanese, which you removed the template for. They exist in the article for purposes of reference.

  • the Beasts of Calamity (災害の獣, Saigai no Shuu?) - This is important because Fou is referred to as belonging to the the Breed of Calamity (災害の種, Saigai no Shuu?)
  • fail-safe (安全装置, anzen souchi?, lit. "security device")
  • the World of the Primates (霊長の世, Reichou no Yo?) -- The original text repeatedly refers to this. This particular usage links to the Reverse Side of the World because that's the only article in this Wikia that somewhat properly explains the distinction between the World of Man and the Interior of the World.
  • "the Combat Ritual For the Salvation of the World" (世界を救うための決戦術式, Sekai wo Sukuu-tame no Kessen Jutsushiki?)

The comparison between Independent Manifestation and the 3rd Magic was in the final Demon Pillar at the Temple of Time; Chloe von Einzbern compares the Independent Manifestation of the Demon Pillars with the 3rd Magic, and says the Demon Pillars are looking down on it.

-- Fallacies (talk) 16:20, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the detailed reply. I reread the part with Chloe and it seems like you're right. It's odd because Goetia doesn't have IM though.
Can I know why you think the Grands have IM though? Gil says that IM is a characteristic specific to Beasts and Merlin's description says that he acquired it using his own means, which means that he shouldn't originally have it. He's also there as a Caster and not a Grand Caster.
I don't have a problem with the reason for your usage of the nihongo template but I feel like some of these words aren't "keywords" that necessarily have to be in the template. Frankly, having too many of these makes it extremely difficult to read the text in the wiki. Maybe replacing some of these templates with quotation marks or something else would be better for emphasis.
Zodiac21 (talk) 04:24, January 13, 2017 (UTC)
Goetia posing as Grand Caster Solomon suggests it during the protagonist's encounter with him in London. Even if he was lying or misrepresenting the truth (for example, concealing the fact that his IM in fact comes from his being an Evil of Man), note that IM appears in none of Servant profiles associated with either Goetia or Solomon in-game. Furthermore, the Grand Order Materials thus far released have a pattern of listing different Personal Skills than that given within the game itself -- for example, assigning Ryougi (Saber) IM despite not listing it within her in-game profile. Thus, it's a fact that the in-game Servant profiles for FGO are not necessarily complete.
Consider also the following:
Merlin exhibits a version of IM, having developed it himself; he projects himself into the World of Man from his dreams, exploiting his nature as an Incubus (an entity with powers associated with dreams). Caster Gilgamesh is able to resurrect himself (by reentering / reinhabiting his corpse) after Ereshkigal draws his soul into the Underworld; and is able to persist after the physical death of his body, manifesting as a spirit with the capacity to utilize Enuma Elish, and taking part in the final confrontation against Tiamat. Thus, at least two of the three Heroic Spirits known to qualify as Grand Casters are able to utilize something resembling Independent Manifestation.
Furthermore, King Hassan somehow manifests in Babylon "to repay the favor that the protagonist gave to his disciple" in Camelot. Even if he says that he's abandoned the seat of Grand Assassin to strike at Tiamat, everything he says makes it sound as if he's in Babylon of his own free will and choice -- even though manifestation by choice should be impossible without IM.
Given the above, it's entirely possible that Goetia's claim about Grand Servants possessing IM isn't a lie.
-- Fallacies (talk) 16:40, January 13, 2017 (UTC)

Beast IIEdit

Mewarmo's translation states:

She is the Maternal Sea who was used as the soil to give birth to life, but once the Earth’s environment settled and ecosystems were established, Tiamat was deemed unnecessary and driven out into the world of imaginary numbers. (The Inner World. Lifeless imaginary number space, not a parallel universe.)

This is the translation quoted in the Tiamat profile on this website, specifically used in the references of this article as the citation of the passage of dispute. I went and got the second opinions of Arai/Deadfish of Fuyuki, CanonRap of Chaldeum, and Reiu, one of the translators of the FGO Scripts for Chaldeum, who all essentially confirmed Mewarmo's translation.

If you really need to go there, "~(で)すら" in practical usage looks like this:

こんな問題、子供ですら解ける。 Even a child could solve the problem.
宿題すらなければよかった。I wish if there weren't even homework.
人ではなく、獣ですらない。 Not a human; not even a beast.
想像すらできない。I can't even imagine.
最も強大な帝国ですら崩壊する。Even the mightiest of empires comes to ruin.

The point is, the construction used here is:

"Phrase 1"。"Phrase 2" ですらない。-> "Phase 1." Not even a "Phrase 2."

More specifically, the grammatical construction of suggests that "Phrase 2" is an object that directly uses "Phrase 1" as its subject. Ergo, in paraphrase, the semantic meaning becomes "This is a Phrase 1, which is not even a Phrase 2." The sentence in question would be rendered, in its original construction, as: "The Interior of the World. Not even a parallel world." I don't see how this would parse as "Does not even have a parallel world," unless you're saying that in the examples above, the second part of "人ではなく、獣ですらない。" would parse as "doesn't even have an animal."

As a second point, which I'm not going to press on, "the Interior" in Nasu parlance generally always means the same exact thing, which is the layer beneath the World of Man controlled by Gaia's laws. Per the above usage, "the World of the Interior" would really just mean "the World" of "the Interior of the World." Furthermore, "the World of the Interior" isn't used except in the Tiamat profile, and there therefore isn't any evidence that the term means something different from "the Interior of the World."

I don't intend to argue over "Interior" vs. "Reverse," because it just means something on the opposing side. It becomes "Interior" only in consideration that the World of Man is the "Exterior" of the World.

-- Fallacies (talk) 00:23, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

ない can have two meanings: "to not be" and "to not have/doesn't exist" (roughly. I hate translating Japanese verbs to English because I learned Japanese separately from English and never "converted" between the two to learn). Fortunately, after I wrote this whole thing, I found a dictionary website: http://jisho.org/search/%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84
人ではなく、獣ですらない uses "to not be", as inferred by its previous phrase.
In the case of parallel worlds, it means "to not have". As in, 考える必要もない。"There's no (as in doesn't have) need to even think about it."
こんなものに意味はない。"There is no (doesn't have) meaning in something like this".
並行世界ですらない、生命のない虚数空間。The meanings of ない in these two cases are the same. You wrote "space of imaginary numbers that doesn't even have life", right?
I realize that 並行世界ですらない can translate to "It's not even a parallel world," but that makes no sense in this context. "An imaginary space. Not even a parallel world." Can you tell me exactly how those two phrases connect to each other? "An imaginary space. Does not even have parallel worlds" makes sense to me. The next phrase 生命のない虚数空間 also uses "to not have."
I'm okay with leaving "World of the Other Side" as ambiguous, but automatically writing it in as "Interior" is jumping to conclusions.
-- Zodiac21 (talk) 12:07, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
You misunderstand. I'm not disputing the meaning of ~ない. I'm disputing your interpretation of ~(で)すら.
虚数世界(裏側の世界。並行世界ですらない、生命のない虚数空間)
The reader is told initially that it's a World of Imaginary Numbers. What this means is unclear, and so the definition is clarified: It's "the World of the Interior." Not even a "Parallel World"; a space of imaginary numbers without life.
Not "doesn't have parallel worlds," which would be written as 並行世界がない. The way ~(で)すらない's construction translates is just as "it is not even (preceding phrase)."
Example of ~がない:
並行世界がないのなら、選択できないことになる。
If there are no parallel worlds, then it becomes the case that there are no choices.
More examples of ~(で)すらない:
近似値ですらない not even an approximate numerical value
トイレに行く時間すらない not even enough time to go to the toilet
あなたは私の彼女ですらない。 You're not even my girlfriend.
子供ですら計算できる Even a child can calculate it.
When you have a construction like 並行世界ですらない、生命のない虚数空間, the continuity between the first and second segments works like this: (first phrase)-ない describes (2nd noun). As such:
並行世界ですらない虚数空間
It's the 虚数空間 that is being described. A grammatically correct translation of the entire sentence becomes: "A space of imaginary numbers without life that isn't even a parallel world."
If you refer to the dictionary definition, ~(で)も and ~(で)さえ are considered equivalent constructions.
But I don't really want to continue the discussion on grammar, because it'll just be more of "we disagree on the interpretation." Therefore, let's go at it from a different angle.
In Watsonian interpretation: Why stress "not even a parallel world" specifically, assuming that this translation is correct? Because if a reader merely sees the explanation that "it's a World of Imaginary Numbers," they might assume that it refers to some arbitrary other reality or dimension, per standard Japanese media tropes. (Metallia from Sailor Moon was sealed inside the Dark Dimension, etc.) The clarification is that, no, she was sealed within "the World of the Interior," which doesn't even classify as a parallel world.
Assuming for a moment that your interpretation is correct, what exactly are we supposed to take from the statement "it doesn't even have parallel worlds"? Does there "not being parallel worlds" have any particular meaning, or serve any particular function? Is Tiamat weakened or more securely imprisoned because there are no parallel worlds to whatever "place" where she was kept? (Clearly, this isn't the case because she broke out right after awakening.)
The assumption follows from Mewarmo's translation is that the World of Imaginary Numbers is simply some sort of "space of containment." Not another timeline or parallel reality. Just a space without life. As I said, at BL, this is also the interpretation that CanonRap, arai, and Reiu gave, when I approached them for a second opinion. As of right now, you're the only translator I've spoken to that insists otherwise.
Note that I'm not using the pressure of numbers as evidence to claim that your interpretation is incorrect. If you want, I can put you into contact with CanonRap and arai, and you can go over the grammar with them yourself. I might even be able to get Mewarmo to talk it through with you. All I'm telling you is that, at the very least, myself and Mewarmo disagree with your translation.
-- Fallacies (talk) 14:15, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
I see what you're trying to say now; it's less a problem about grammar than it is about the particular meaning that this phrase would have on the "world," if I'm understanding you correctly. Because as far as I can see, 並行世界ですらない can grammatically translate as "doesn't even have parallel worlds," or "not even parallel worlds exist."
I don't think the conclusion that you drew in that "it doesn't even qualify as a parallel world" is correct though, because the usage of ~(で)すら would mean that the defined word has to be "greater" in some way than the preceding word. There's another interpretation that does make sense though.
From what I understand (and frankly, I didn't see this until you pointed it out), the interpretation of the phrase, "not even a parallel world," would emphasize it as a prison that's "even more" inescapable than a parallel world (in this case, however, the Reverse Side of the World would probably disqualify. Also, the Interior of the World has life, just not humans).
To explain my position, I think that the "World of the Other Side" is a separate world, hence the difference in wording. Because it's a whole another world, it has to be defined clearly to explain how "different" of a world it is. Lo and behold, a description: "wow, it doesn't even have parallel worlds and has no life? That's sure different from our world!"
To support my position of the "World" not being the reverse side, Solomon says that his Ars Paulina exists outside of the universe (sky) and outside of time, in the space of imaginary numbers. I think this is a similar case.
-- Zodiac21 (talk) 19:10, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

Beast II (Part 2)Edit

It's not the conclusion that I drew. The notion that "it doesn't even quality as a parallel world" is the conclusion that Mewarmo drew in the translation of the Tiamat profile, which was subsequently confirmed by a consensus of other translators from Beasts' Lair. The assertion that the Interior of the World and the World of the Interior are the same is also within Mewarmo's translation. A rough reasoning for this is as below:

The Interior of the World is a massive "space" that contains places like Scathach's Country of Shadows and the Isle of Avalon, among others; the Tower of the End that the Lance of Rhongomyniad is a shadow of stands on the boundaries of the World of Man, in a location that can't be reached by humans. After the Age of Separation that Gilgamesh lived within, the Underworld of Ereshkigal and the Sea of Dawn that lies under the Underworld -- the Abyss that Gilgamesh is said to have walked through to obtain the Herb of Immortality -- were excluded from the World of Man, removing them from the underground of Iraq, and pushing them into the Interior of the World.

In places like the Country of Shadows and the Underworld, basic phenomenon such as "Death" function differently; and Avalon is explicitly not subject to the time axis that human timelines observe. The reason Gilgamesh asked Ereshkigal and Ishtar to trap Tiamat within the Underworld is that, like Tiamat's original prison, the Underworld is considered a World Without Life -- a property that Gilgamesh thinks will remove Tiamat's definitional immortality (she is said to be the first born and the last to die; she cannot die except in a world where she is the only remaining life, or nearly so).

In Tsukihime materials for Marble Phantasm, Nasu states:

空想具現化
マーブル・ファンタズム。読んで字の如く、自らの空想を具現化し、世界を変化させる能力。精霊種が持つ自然への干渉能力。
ただし、変化させることのできるのは自身(精霊)と自然物のみという制限があり、自然から離れてしまった、例えば人工物を変化させることはできない。
精霊の住むとされる異界別世界ではない)であるところの隠れ里常春の国といったものは、精霊の描いた空想が具現化したものであるとされる。アルクェイド・ブリュンスタッドの居城「千年城ブリュンスタッド」も同様。
関連項目固有結界

精霊の住むとされる異界(別世界ではない)-> the Otherworlds that Faeries live within (not a separate world)

In other words, even the habitats produced by the Faeries via Marble Phantasm are considered "Otherworlds" (異界, ikai), regardless of their size / scale or actual location (whether they exist in the World of Man or in the Interior of the World). Furthermore, Nasu clarifies that these so-called Otherworlds aren't to be considered "another / a separate world" (別世界, betsu sekai) from whatever World they exist within the context of, despite being called "Otherworlds" in terminology. This is exactly the same construction as the statement of clarification that contains 並行世界ですらない. Many of those locations named above probably qualify as Otherworlds.

The point is that the Interior of the World contains many domains (regardless of whether they qualify as Otherworlds or not), and even without necessarily considering the Interior of the World, there are many domains that lie outside of the World of Man, or cannot be accessed by humans. If any of these domains happens to be a World of Imaginary Numbers Without Life, I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

Now, you could argue that when the contents of the parenthesis states "World of the Interior," it means that the entirety of the so-called "World of Imaginary Numbers" occupies the entirety of "the World of Imaginary Numbers" -- but this is like assuming that "Damascus (Syria)" means that the city of Damascus is the entirety of the Middle East. A construction whereby the contents of the parenthesis clarifies the first phrase permits distinction from other things that may have the same name or description. For example, there is in fact a city called Damascus in Canada. Stating "Damascus" with the specification of "(Syria)" indicates that you are not referring to "Damascus (Canada)."

The main issue with this argument is that "The World of the Reverse" does not appear in any existing canonical materials thus far released aside from the Tiamat profile. Comparatively, "The Reverse of the World" has an established meaning and exists in common parlance. Being that this is the case, there's no reason not to assume that they refer to the same thing. There's no evidence that they aren't the same thing, precisely because "The World of the Reverse" appears nowhere else. Or rather, if you believe the two to be separate and distinct existences, where is your evidence?

Note that there are variants in the term "Universe." For example, "the Universe of Observation" (観測宇宙) is:

観測宇宙
時間の概念の在り方が「認識される時間」である世界、もしくは視点のこと。
「認識される」とは、過去・現在・未来の三様が同時に知覚されていないことを意味する。
例えば人間の知覚では、過去は常に現在に更新されその現在からいずれくる未来を観測しているので、三様は同時に知覚されていない。
観測宇宙の利点は、現在から先は見通せないかわりに当事者は未来を変化させられる揺らぎを持っていること。これにより明日という現在を変革できる。

In Extella, this is the same as "the Universe of Recognition" (認識宇宙), but distinct from "the Universe of Record" (記録宇宙). Ergo, for humans, the Universe of Observation / Recognition is the world or point of view within which the concept of "Time" exists as "Time Within Human Recognition"; comparatively, "Time" within "the Universe of Record" exists as "Time As Has Been Submitted to Record" (記録される時間). Since Avalon doesn't follow the human time axis, and humans generally cannot become aware of the passage of time as occurs within Avalon, it is classified as a location outside "the Universe of Recognition." If Goetia states that the Temple of Time is outside Time, and outside "the Universe," what Universe is he referring to, exactly? What is your evidence?

Assuming that the Temple of Time is outside "the Universe of Recognition," then it would simply be like any other location unaffected by the human time axis. Would it therefore be considered a 並行世界? Given that 並行世界 refer in Extella Mat to branches from the Tree of Human Time, and the Temple of Time is not a branching timeline, the answer is probably no.

Ergo, all of the conditions are met for both Avalon and Goetia's Temple of Time to satisfy the description of "outside Time, and outside the Universe." They are furthermore not parallel worlds.

Does that prevent Goetia from interfering with other space-time locales within human history? No, not really -- in the same way that whatever properties Tiamat's World of Imaginary Numbers possessed didn't prevent her from escaping immediately after she awoke. If your assumption is correct, and the World of Imaginary Numbers "lacked any parallel worlds," then that lack of parallel worlds ultimately had no observable impact on Tiamat's escape or the reassertion of her power. She was able to leave as soon as Gorgon's defeat awoke her.

Why bother mentioning it, then? Did the Gods that killed / sealed Tiamat believe that not having parallel worlds would make her prison more secure or something, despite her Independent Manifestation? Did she not possess Independent Manifestation at the time, or were the Gods simply unaware of it? Is all of the above what you think Nasu intends to communicate when he gives an explanation like this?

Extella Material furthermore states that "the Universe" is capable of housing multiple (but not an infinite number of) human timelines simultaneously (each of which is referred to as a 並行世界) -- though we aren't told which type of "Universe" this refers to. Specifically, it's stated that it isn't one "Universe" to one timeline. It's multiple timelines simultaneously existing in one "Universe" -- and so "the Universe" being referred to doesn't purely refer to a region of space. Additionally, timelines that are considered to be destined for elimination are still referred to as 並行世界; and the Bedivere that traveled to the 6th Singularity was still committed to 記録 within the Throne of Heroes.

To reiterate, my position is merely that other, generally accepted translations do not agree with your rendition of the text, or this interpretation. However, given your arguments thus far, I don't think you're going to budge on this -- and therefore, the point that I'll stress is that this is a wiki article intended to inform the general audience of a general understanding of the subject, and the general understanding of the subject here happens to be that Mewarmo's translation is valid.

If you wish to make a case that his translation is invalid, make a comment on the relevant thread on Beasts' Lair, or start a new thread for the discussion of the subject.

-- Fallacies (talk) 04:34, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

No,no, I was just explaining my position on my last post. I'm honestly okay with leaving it as it is now that I understood what you were trying to say.
You're misunderstanding something though; Tiamat never broke out of the prison of the "world of imaginary numbers" or "world of the interior", whatever you want to say.
人理定礎の崩壊、そして聖杯の力によりこちらの世界に帰還を果たしたティアマトは、しかし、深い微睡みの中にいた。それがマーリンの魔術によるものかはさておき、カルデアの攻撃によりその眠りから目覚め、その本能に従って人類掃討に乗り出した。
What I don't agree on at this point is the wording of "doesn't qualify." As far as I can see, Mewarmo's translation does not write this in. You do. What would be the point of writing, "this space isn't even a parallel world, so it's easy to break out of." It obviously kept her at bay until the 人理定礎 collapsed and a Grail was used to break her out. She was already in the "real world" before she went to sleep.
In other words, this place should be "even more" separated from the real world than a parallel world, otherwise there would be no point in writing the すら.
-- Zodiac21 (talk) 12:19, January 19, 2017 (UTC)
I give that I missed that, but alright. In that case, see the page edit.
--- Fallacies (talk) 14:28, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

DemonEdit

This is a mirror of the discussion here.

Since you changed the Demon page to refer exclusively to 悪魔, you're gonna have to find a way to deal with 魔, which is what the page referred to previously. 魔 doesn't just refer to "general supernatural phenomena" as you imply in the Demon page. Bazett says in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia that True Demons are just incarnated demons (魔) who were born as 魔 before being living creatures. Kagetsu Tohya defines 魔 as (paraphrase) something born in the laws of nature that defy it. Whether that means 魔 is a nature spirit or not, I don't know, but 魔 is an actual term.

Example of 魔 as a specific term:

変転の魔:B 英雄や神が生前に魔として変じたことを示す。 過去に於ける事実を強調することでサーヴァントとしての能力を著しく強化させるスキル。 ゴルゴーンは、人の身では絶対に不可能なランクの筋力と耐久力に到達している。

If you want to designate 魔 as a phantasmal species as you did on the page on the Oni you're gonna have to find a source for that. Zodiac21 (talk) 19:35, February 24, 2017 (UTC)

1) You misread. I said that it refers generally to "supernatural beings." Tsukai-Ma and Mu-Ma were given as examples. Specifically, I said:
There exists some terminological confusion within the English fandom, as in both Tsukihime and conventional Japanese usage, the term "Ma" (魔, ?) -- also rendered as "demon" in some translations -- refers in general to supernatural beings and to assorted supernatural existences and phenomenon.
Note that I'm acknowledging here that Tsukihime does indeed refer to things as "Ma." The definition within Tsukihime canon is as thus:
魔(ま)
自然の法則にありながらその流れを歪めるモノとして必要とされなかった力を行使するモノ達。
発生しているだけで歪みである。故に退魔は即座にこれを禁じる。
Note how utterly general and unspecific it is. Anything that wields "unnecessary" powers in violation of natural law; their existence itself is a distortion.
The Hollow Ataraxia definition that you mention says thus:
聖堂教会でいう『受肉した魔』は生物である以前に『魔』として創造されたため、人間より高度な魔術を使う。人間のような後付の魔術回路はなく、その生体機能のすべてが『魔』を呼び込むための機能である。教会ではそれを『真性悪魔』と呼ぶ。人間の想念を被って『固体名』になる偽物とはちがう、主が遣わした、人が名付ける前からそうであった本当の『悪魔』だと。
Even though it makes use of 受肉した魔 instead of 受肉した悪魔, it's clearly discussing Demons (悪魔) as its primary subject.
2) Your quoted example above demonstrates only that there is something called "Ma." This was already acknowledged in the article:
Further conflation erroneously existed between Enfleshed Demons (受肉した悪魔, juniku-shita akuma?, lit. "Incarnated Demon") and the races of incorporated creatures referred to as "Ma" -- for example, Oni Kind were frequently referred to as True Demons (真性悪魔, Shinsei Akuma?) within the fandom, simply because they possessed flesh.
However, your quote does not define what variety of "ma" Gorgon became. It just says that she indeed became a "ma." What is a "ma," in this context? What are we supposed to take from it beyond that it's something distinct from a Divinity?
In the present article, it is acknowledged that there exists something known as "Ma," and that it refers to supernatural beings. The definition of "Ma" in this context is widely varied and unspecific. Familiars / Tsukaima are, most of the time, living creatures with a magus' Circuits implanted. Demonic Beasts / Majuu are phantasmal creatures that always possessed flesh.
3) These are the definitions I have found for Kishu, from Tsukihime:
鬼種(用語)
人から成った鬼人ではなく、もとから鬼であるもの。遠野の血族はこれとの混血。
文明の発展に伴って衰退し、いまや絶滅種となった。
Not humans that became Kijin, but Oni to begin with.
鬼種(きしゅ)
生粋の魔
実は月姫世界においては系統樹からして人間とは違っている最初から鬼であるモノと、土蜘蛛等と呼ばれ迫害されて隠れ住むようになり、生物的に少々変異してしまった力ある元・人間の2種類居て、遠野家の祖先は前者であると漢話月姫においてきのこさんが述べている。
なんだか前者は真祖、後者は魔術を極めてなった死徒に似ている。秋葉は自分とルーツが同じであるとアルクェイドが言っていた事から、元から人間とは違う鬼種の方は超越種の中の一種族であると思われる。
Pure "Ma."
A species evolutionarily distinct from humans.
Transcendant Kind.
遠野の一族
その起源は「鬼種」とされている。
鬼種には2種類があり、「元から鬼と呼ばれる系統樹からして人間とは違う者」と「力ある者達が土蜘蛛だのなんだのと呼ばれて朝廷から追われて隠れ住むようになって、生物的にちょっとおかしくなってしまった者」。(「漢話月姫」第7回より)
遠野の血脈に混ざっているのは前者。なお現在、純粋な鬼種は絶滅種となっている。
資産家であり、財閥めいた一大グループを築いているが、序列は経済的な裕福さよりも、血の尊さが優先されている。
Alternatively, those humans who went into hiding because possessed capabilities outside the norm (are probably those referred to as Kijin).
At no point is the "Ma" above conflated with "Akuma."
Comparatively, Phantasmal Breeds are defined as:
幻想種
伝説・神話にて登場する生物の総称。文字通り、幻想の中にのみ生きるモノ。
外的要因によって生態系が変貌したモノ、ヒトの想念より生み出されたモノ、長寿により上の段階にあがったモノなどがいる。妖精や巨人と言われる亜人、日本の生粋の鬼や竜と言われる魔獣などがこれに該当する。特に竜種は幻想種の頂点に位置し、最強の幻想種であるとされている。 サーヴァントの宝具として召喚・使役されることもある。
Includes the Pure Oni of Japan.
幻想種(用語)
神話・伝承などに見られる特異な生物。幻想の中にのみ生存するモノ。在り方そのものが神秘であるモノ。魔術が知識で力を蓄えるのに対し彼らは長い寿命で力を蓄える。存在そのものが神秘であるため、それだけで魔術を凌駕するとされる。
外的要因により生態系が変化したモノ、人の想念より誕生したモノ、長寿により上の段階に上がったモノとがいる。
種類としては妖精や巨人といわれる亜人、や竜といわれる魔獣などがあり、中でも竜種は幻想種の最高位にある。
Includes Oni.
In sum, Oni Kind are a Phantasmal Breed, and they are referred to as "Ma," but not "Akuma." Tsukihime defines "Ma" as anything that wields "unnecessary" powers in violation of natural law. This is an incredibly vague definition that encompasses a whole lot of things. "Akuma," by comparison, has a very specific definition.
-- Fallacies (talk) 05:53, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

Noble Phantasm Pages Edit

Hey!

So I noticed that you are one of the people that are making the Noble Phantasm pages. Since I'm a newbie at making pages, I was wondering if you can make all the Noble Phantasm pages of those that haven't been made into a page yet if you have the time (you can check the Noble Phantasm article for all the dead link pages). I can fill in all the details and translations then. Thanks!

N/A 03:52, February 26, 2017 (UTC)Clyton

lol I am not but I can try. I'll just fill in the bare bones cuz I don't want to translate the whole thing. Zodiac21 (talk) 21:31, February 28, 2017 (UTC)
I think I got the hang of it except the reference list creation part, but thanks anyways! Just to make sure we don't overlap, I'll finish the rest of Fionn's Noble Phantasms for today, focusing on the uncreated Noble Phantasm pages from the first three F/GO material books.
N/A 23:51, February 28, 2017 (UTC)Clyton

True MagicEdit

"Magic is attained by reaching the Root, but not touching it like those who are said to have disappeared from the World upon touching it."


This seems pretty confusing to me and nuance here could make a significant difference in how it's interpreted, i'd love to read the source. The way it's phrased it seems to imply that the very act of "not touching" is what gives you true magic. And is it "magic is attained by reaching the root" or is it "magic CAN be attained by reaching the Root" , because it seems to be implied that it is the only way to ever to attain true magic, which is strange. Thus this part of lore seems pretty weird and confusing.  

And why would you acquire true magic at all, and why just the first person, is it like a reward? Weird.  

The Age of Gods and everything else seems to imply that there could be true magic discovered without reaching the Root.


Frozenkex (talk) 04:02, January 24, 2018 (UTC)

The source is mostly Mahoyo.
From the text, Aoko's grandfather "created" the Fifth Magic using a path to the Root then closed it afterwards, so it seems to imply that it's not just automatically given to you...but elsewhere in the text (It's chapter 9. I remember.) it says that Magic is a gift given to the first one who reached the Root in a certain way. Yeah, that part's iffy but whatever. You also can't use Magic even if you get to the Root if you lack the body needed to use it.
That part about reaching the Root being the only way to attain Magic is most definitely a textual oversight. You can reach the Root by using Magic as your "path" as well. Feel free to change it if you want.
Magic didn't exist before the Age of Man; as of Mahoyo, Magic is called a purely artificial concept that humans have created. There was kind of an added info dump in Mahoyo where Magic is supposed to be unperformable by the Earth in order to qualify as Magic, since Magecraft and modern science act as just recreating phenomena that already exists on Earth. What this probably means is that humans considered anything impossible to them as "magic" in ancient times when they were weak with science, but the ideas behind the modern Five Magics have always been static (again, Mahoyo. The reason that there's five magics in the first place is because a guy said there was to be five magics). These ideas are that they're impossibilities for humanity and the Earth.Zodiac21 (talk) 23:10, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
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